Evidence of meeting #39 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was africa.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stuart Clark  Senior Policy Advisor, Canadian Foodgrains Bank
Malex Alebikiya  As an Individual
Fidelis Wainaina  As an Individual
Ian Smillie  Research Coordinator, Partnership Africa Canada

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Thank you, and thank you for coming. Karibu.

I grew up in Africa, in Kenya and in Tanzania, and I'm well aware of all the dynamics that take place with small-scale farming in Africa. I have been back to Africa many times in reference to small-scale farming and everything. I know the need for more aid. I know the need for this.

What is really, in our point of view, one of the most serious barriers is good governance in Africa. There is also the poor infrastructure, which has never been developed, and the poor irrigation. There's absolutely no system of irrigation. We rely on the rains, and if the rains fail, you have famine. You have deforestation that's taking place. In the area I grew up in, and this relates to the question of trees you talked of, there's an absolute deforestation taking place because of the increase of livestock, which is one of the wealths that the Africans see. There are strong structural problems before it can go.

Now Ghana has had success, because of good governance to some degree in Ghana as well. But ultimately it falls on them.

So before the Government of Canada increases its aid and everything, we have to address some of these main issues that go hand in hand. I've been to small-scale farming operations in Nairobi, outside of Kenya, in the Rift Valley, where Canada gives its aid, to see how small things do impact quite a bit. But I still think, ultimately, these good governance structural problems need to be resolved before there is any kind of green revolution in Africa.

Of course, we've put a lot of our emphasis and hope in the Doha Round, which would open up the agricultural market for Africa in the rich countries, which is also one of the strongest barriers for Africa.

So in terms of the NGOs that you are asking for and all these things, I agree with you one hundred per cent that the leadership has to come from Africa, from the NGOs, and I think Canada would need to work with the NGOs to work towards achieving these things here. So I think before we start saying yes, let's increase all aid, yes, let's do all these things, we need to also look at these factors to assist here to see that it goes. Am I right?

9:45 a.m.

As an Individual

Fidelis Wainaina

Honourable MP, I do agree with you, and you're best placed as a member of Parliament to think of mentoring. I agree that this is the greatest need that we have—good governance, good leadership. You're the gatekeepers. You are the ones who are best placed to strategically position yourselves to talk with our leaders because you are stakeholders.

And perhaps more than engaging in reducing aid to us, you would increase your participation in moulding our leaders, in putting a voice and saying hey to Mr. Kibaki, our honourable president, in a way that he's not threatened—remember, this is an African man—and bring them on board to see that leadership would be—And they're doing a great job. Absolutely.

In some ways I feel like we have been misrepresented. But if you engage more in seeing us as called to mentor and to bring good leadership, at the same time you should realize that when the grassroots people are empowered, they can also have that voice to act, that they need a good road, that they want to harvest their water. There are things they could begin to do if you do find them. And we've seen that harvesting water is something that communities can do if they're facilitated. If they begin to act—

At the risk of taking too much time, I went through a university that was very much funded by Canadians, and I'm a product of what happened to me, because you put your money there. At this time we are saying that things do change, and at this point in our history we want that research to move out from the research shelves and come to the people. That cannot happen if we continue to fund the same structures as heavily, at the expense of causing them to move that research to their own people, who are contributing to paying for the debt we incurred as we were going to school. So we need to go there.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Thank you.

Mr. Goldring.

February 1st, 2007 / 9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Ms. Wainaina, I appreciated your comments a little earlier when you disagreed that more aid simply would be the cure for the problem. I appreciate your comments on that because I think around the table here, and as is very commonly understood, the core to any sustainable development in governance or civil society is certainly sustainability of food production and being able to feed—A core to aid, or the most important thing, is to have the food aid delivered to feed the people, but more important than that is to provide the equipment and expertise and funding to be able to have the population sustain that food production in the following years.

So I appreciate your comments on that, and your comment that part and parcel, of course, of being most effective is the involvement of civil society with the governance of the region too, because all of these things fit together. There is no one simple solution to the difficulty here.

An interesting part of that, which hasn't been discussed, is micro-financing. We're hearing that it has had great success in helping people to develop small farms and agricultural projects. Could you explain if micro-financing has been effective in your region, and is this one area that can be explored? It seems to me that some of the statistics coming back are that it's 90% refundable or returned by these small businesses and farms involved in it. Could you tell us a little bit about its success or lack of success, and what you think could be done to improve that area?

9:50 a.m.

As an Individual

Fidelis Wainaina

I would say there has been success, yes, but the question is whose success? And micro-finance is a good tool, but if it is not moulded to affect agricultural enterprises—and we all know that agriculture has a lot of variants—so that people will be more willing to lend to other people who are doing secondary interventions because they can repay.... But if you want to lend to women to go and grow their vegetables or to keep chickens, and they come and tell you that the chickens died, then you don't want to go that way as an economist.

So I would propose that this is the right place for us to increase aid, but to also be flexible and to think about other ways we can use micro-finance. I wish my East African friend were here. There is something we call pesa taslimu, meaning legal tender. How do we see African resources? Do we see them more in the way of dollars? If I had a cow, you would still call it a resource, but does that mean if I brought my cow as a way of exchange for micro-finance you would still accept it? So I would call for redefining what we call resources.

I would also call for incubating the poor, for systems that enable the poor to come to a level where they are creditworthy, because the kind of poverty we are defining here is a kind of poverty that keeps you out of the system, so that even accessing micro-credit can really be a big problem.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Thank you.

Yes, very short, for 30 seconds, because I'm approximately out of time and I have one more questioner.

9:55 a.m.

As an Individual

Malex Alebikiya

In our programs, we have micro-finance. I would even say that the whole concept of rural banks in Ghana started in the wake of the NGOs in the field, in terms of mobilizing farmers to make savings and credits at their own level and moving those through banks.

In our experience, the micro-financing we've done has been very successful, but it has also been successful in the areas where the farmers have access to a market for their produce at a fair and good price. Since I just have 30 seconds, I'll say that this has been successful, in my experience, and from the study that we did I think it came up as one of the prime movers for small-scale agriculture.

Thank you very much.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

My pleasure.

Now we'll go to Ms. McDonough.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to welcome all three of our guests, especially our guests who have come from Africa to share their experiences. I have to say your timing is perfect from three points of view, given the thrust of your presentation.

One is that you're quite right that this country is finally seized with climate change as a really serious issue, and I think you have helped to elucidate some of the relevance of your case for small-scale rural farming being at the heart of the strategy, from the African perspective.

Secondly, you may or may not know that this committee has been very much seized for two years now with the issue of directing our international aid particularly to poverty reduction, with that being very much the priority.

Thirdly, a number of members of Parliament have been in Africa over the last couple of weeks. I have to say, as one such member, that it was thrilling to visit both Kenya and Uganda to see the clearly overwhelming challenges that are faced, but also to see the very strong, impressive leadership coming from civil society, coming from local village councils and provincial governments and so on, around the very issues you're talking about.

I really also want, and I think we would be remiss not to do so, to recognize the leadership that has come from the food security network. Mr. Clark is a voice that is heard among others around the very fundamental issues you're talking about, again and again before this committee and directed to all members of Parliament of all political parties.

You have spoken particularly about understanding the connection between sustainable rural livelihoods and healthy ecosystems, but what we also saw, particularly when visiting, I would say, some of the projects in Kenya, was the very close connection between healthy rural agriculture and healthy bodies, in terms of adequate nutrition and of recognizing the double challenge faced by people struggling with HIV/AIDS. We were blown away by the numbers of people who are living positively with HIV/AIDS because nutrition was being addressed in a very serious way.

Also, I was extremely impressed in a number of cases in which young people were being brought into agricultural training opportunities that were turning their lives around. Some of the projects I saw in Uganda, as well as in Kenya, were directed at young people who in some cases were HIV/AIDS orphans and who were getting really good agricultural training for a lifetime; in some cases, in northern Uganda—unbelievably—children whose lives were being turned around, because they had been abducted as child soldiers and forced in some cases into child sex slavery and were now being reintegrated and rehabilitated, with agriculture as the solid base to help them turn their own lives around and to also rebuild their communities.

So I want to commend you on the presentation you've made, but also on the display of leadership. It won't surprise you to know that all members of Parliament don't agree on all matters, but I think it is not so much for you to say as it is for us to reaffirm our commitment to meet our millennium development goal obligations and our ODA obligations to climb out of the basement, where we are now, at 0.32% ODA, to at least meet the minimum of 0.7%.

The committee has also just come back from Europe, where we met with five European countries, all of whom are way ahead of where Canada is in this. I do not think you should take either/or for an answer; it has to be both/and. It has to be our meeting of those basic obligations for ODA, but also working at respect and knowledge, working in partnership with local leadership.

I have a very specific question that I want to ask.

9:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

It is a very specific question about marketing. You can see I'm very excited about what we learned, and I want to make this connection.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Ms. McDonough, make it a short question, if you want to get an answer.

10 a.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

I have a very short question about marketing.

I know we've tried to address the problems of fair trade and fair markets in North America, but do I understand from your presentation that one of your messages is that we would serve your interests better if we were helping to provide the support at the very local level for local and regional markets, which means transportation to local venues and so on?

Without maybe an either/or, is that—

10 a.m.

As an Individual

10 a.m.

As an Individual

Malex Alebikiya

As we said before, the problem of markets also has a structural impasse, but in the context of the farmer, and Parliament organizing farmers, one of the things we foresee is organizing them and empowering them to the point where they can negotiate good markets for themselves, and linking them to those markets.

Ms. McDonough, I'll just give you one example. In our program, we have organized farmers—when I talk about farmers, I'm talking about men and women, because 45% of the farmers in this organization are women. We have managed to link them with big companies, Guinness and other big exporters, for markets. In that context, we have set up a social marketing company that is farmer-owned, and the farmers themselves are sitting on the board of this company. This company negotiates with Guinness on the price and comes back and negotiates with the farmers. One of the things I see as being very important is empowering them, giving them that market information and making it possible for them to understand the whole production and marketing chain, to be part of it.

As a result, what we have seen...we thought the farmers' production was low. Because there was an opportunity to get a higher price, last year we supplied 150 pounds of sorghum to Guinness. This year we are supplying 600 pounds from those farmers, without fertilizer, without anything. I'm not saying that is not important. I am saying that by opening up that opportunity, by their being able to understand that we are getting a good price and by being part of that process, they are able to go back and take their own initiative as to where and how much acreage they will put into this to get a good income for the other things they need for their families.

In my opinion, markets are important. The structural issues are important. Organizing them and making them part of that and empowering them to be able to negotiate is also important.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Thank you very much.

I want to thank our guests, Mr. Clark, Ms. Wainaina, and Mr. Alebikiya, for being here this morning.

We'll recess for a few minutes before our next round.

Thank you.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

In the second portion of our meeting this morning we have the pleasure to have with us from Partnership Africa Canada, Mr. Ian Smillie, who is research coordinator.

Mr. Smillie, welcome. If you can, you can start your presentation, please.

10:10 a.m.

Ian Smillie Research Coordinator, Partnership Africa Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for inviting me to be here today.

I want to talk a little bit about democratic development and how it has evolved in Canada, how our thinking about the promotion of democratic development has evolved. I want to talk a little bit about what it is, why we promote it, and how we do it. And I want to talk a little bit about some of my own experiences as well in this area.

On the question of what democratic development is and where it came from, historically we've actually been very late to the idea of promoting democratic development in developing countries. Many countries in the west and in the Eastern bloc actually supported bad governance for many years in support of Cold War objectives and regimes that were acting in anything but the cause of good governance. I'm thinking of countries like China, Ethiopia, Somalia, Congo, Liberia, and Indonesia. It's only in the last 25 or 30 years that we've actually begun to think more seriously about how we can promote good governance.

The first foray into the idea of good governance was in the area of human rights. It was probably the Carter administration in the United States that started to talk more openly and more directly about the need to promote human rights through aid programs and informed policy, followed by the Netherlands, and then gradually by other countries, including Canada. So human rights was the beginning of this discussion.

Then in the late 1970s and into the 1980s we talked about economic governance, because we were beginning to see that many countries, especially in Africa, but not exclusively, were running double- and triple-digit inflation. Currencies were worthless, and the economies were in a state of free fall. Structural adjustment became the watchword of the 1980s.

During the 1970s there were approximately 10 structural adjustment programs a year. In 1980 there were 28, and by 1985 there were 129 more. Structural adjustment was a pretty tough cocktail of economic remedies that developing country governments were asked to swallow. Many did. The results, in some cases, were successful. In many cases they were not.

We moved to the idea of more democratic governance. We began to think about that more clearly and more forthrightly during the 1980s. During the 1980s, many of the military governments in Latin America began to fall, partly because of the economic conditions they found themselves in, and you had a return to democratic elections in many Latin American countries. Then, with the end of the Cold War and the fall of the Berlin Wall, we could talk much more openly about democracy and how to promote it.

The promotion of good governance, as I said in the paper I submitted to you, is essentially about building effective institutions and rules imbued with predictability, accountability, transparency, and the rule of law. It's about relations between institutions and processes, governmental and otherwise. A UNDP report says it's also about protecting human rights, promoting wider participation in the institutions and rules that affect people's lives, and achieving more equitable economic and social outcomes. Governance for human development must be democratic in substance and in form.

Why do we want to promote democratic governance? Democratic or good governance, depending on how you define it or term it, is a key to poverty alleviation and long-term sustainable development. It's important to conflict prevention and conflict resolution. And it's very important to the better management of human, natural, and environmental resources.

In my paper I talk about some of the difficulties we've had in promoting this. I said that some critics of Canada's approach to governance lament the absence of coherent policies tying all aspects of the agenda together. A patchy project-by-project approach, with no obvious central policy and no central management, they say, is unlikely to yield coherent results. This may be true, but given the overwhelming size of the governance agenda and the limited track record in its promotion by any donor, healthy doses of humility and caution are warranted, along with a good set of brakes in the expectations department.

Given the complexity of the challenge, a case can be made for selective interventions in concert with other donors, aimed at learning what works and what does not. The apparent absence in Canada, however, of a place where the lessons can be rolled up, spelled out, shared, and remembered works against the learning that is so badly needed in this field.

I'd like to talk about three examples of how governance is applied or thought about from my own experience. The first is the Canada Corps that came onto the scene a couple of years ago with a lot of flourish. Through Canada Corps, we were to promote good governance and democracy, primarily by sending young people overseas on short-term assignments.

At the time, I was a lone voice on this. It was kind of odd that nobody said it, but we actually had a Canada Corps called CUSO, the World University Service of Canada, Canada World Youth, and Canadian Crossroads International. We had 12 or 13 volunteer-sending organizations in Canada, and over the last 20 years, all of them have been starved for funds.

When I left CUSO in 1993 as the outgoing executive director, we had a budget of $26 million. Today, in 2007 dollars, CUSO has a budget of $13 million. All of the volunteer-sending organizations have had serious cutbacks. I don't think we necessarily needed a new organization. What we needed was a rejuvenation and rededication of what was already there, unless of course you see sending young people overseas as the cutting edge, in terms of the promotion of good governance and democratic development. The problem with that idea is that those in developing countries who want good governance know what it is. Those who don't are not likely to be persuaded by young Canadians on three-month assignments.

The talk about Canada Corps has gradually subsided, and it's been folded into something called the Office for Democratic Governance at CIDA. It's too new to say what this actually is—it just started—but at least the title is more appropriate to the challenges.

Secondly, I wanted to mention the Pakistan environment program I was involved in for five years. CIDA ran this project for more than 10 years, and by 2002-03 it had become the leader among donors on environmental issues in Pakistan. Canada had promoted the development of Pakistan's national environment policy and brought together government, the private sector, and Pakistani civil society to talk about these issues and to promote change.

This area was and remains extremely important in Pakistan, but in the early part of this decade, governance rose to the fore in CIDA's agenda. CIDA decided it needed to have projects in governance. Today CIDA is supporting a project on the devolution of governance: decentralization in two districts of Punjab and Pakistan. That may be a very good project—I don't know anything about it—but it was done at the expense of everything we knew about the environment.

Our work on environment was about the governance of a very badly underresourced sector in Pakistan. We were the leaders. We were not a large donor in Pakistan, but we were the largest in that area. We had a voice, leverage, and the ear of government. Now we can't actually remember what it was we did in Pakistan on the environment.

The third area is diamonds. For the last seven or eight years I've been working on the issue of conflict or blood diamonds, which are the diamonds stolen by rebel armies in Africa and used to pay for weapons to prosecute wars. Over the last 15 years, the diamond-fuelled wars in Angola, the Congo, Liberia, and Sierra Leon have directly or indirectly taken the lives of four million people. That's not an exaggeration; it's a fact that's backed up by a lot of study--four million people.

When the issue of conflict diamonds came to the fore in 1999 and 2000, the Government of Canada became very much involved and took this very seriously. We had what I would call a joined-up approach.

The Department of Foreign Affairs led on the negotiations for the Kimberley process, which is a certification scheme to control the movement of rough diamonds. The Department of Indian and Northern Affairs was involved because they are in charge of diamonds in the Northwest Territories. Natural Resources Canada was involved.

We received support from IDRC, very generous support, and from CIDA in our work both on campaigning and in the creation of the architecture for the Kimberley process certification scheme.

About two years ago we began to talk about the development issues behind all of this. The Kimberley process is up and running and working fairly well. It's not perfect, but it's working fairly well. But the Kimberley process is a regulatory process. It's not about development.

In Africa there are more than a million, probably 1.3 million, artisanal diamond diggers. These are people who dig with a shovel and the sweat of their brows to dig diamonds out of the earth. They earn on average about a dollar a day. It puts them into the category of absolute poverty. These people were the source of the conflict diamonds. They are vulnerable to economic predators. They are still vulnerable to military predators.

What's needed on top of the Kimberley process in addition, now that we have the regulation in hand, is a development process. My organization, Partnership Africa Canada, and some others, along with the diamond industry and the governments of the countries affected, have created something called the diamond development initiative to work on the development challenges here.

The minute development came into the equation, our funding from CIDA ceased. We had received very generous funding, but from one year to the next, it simply dropped off the agenda and we had nothing.

It is very odd that we get support from the governments of Britain and Ireland, from a number of other sources, and from the industry itself, which is very worried about this issue, and not from our own development agency.

This is a governance issue as well, the governance of a very important natural resource for Africa. Seventy per cent of the world's gem diamonds are produced in Africa. Diamonds have never been regulated in any way at all in the past. Here is a challenge and an opportunity.

We need to be a lot clearer about what we mean by democratic development and good governance. We need to understand why we're doing it, and we need to learn and apply what we've learned.

I finish my paper, which I submitted to you, in this way.

I agree, however, with the admonitions found in all thoughtful critiques on governance programming: good governance does not drop from the sky; it is not a gift; it cannot be imposed. Good governance is unlikely to flow from a collection of disparate, time-bound projects offered by a dozen ill-coordinated donors. It cannot be transferred holus-bolus like pizza from a delivery truck. It must be earned and learned, not just by those for whom it is intended but by those who would help them. Effective application of the full governance agenda as we now understand it is still pretty much undocumented, untested, and uncoordinated. And it is far too young for dogmatism and certainty. It is old enough, however, that mistakes should not be repeated, and it is important enough that lessons, both positive and negative, should be documented, learned, remembered, and applied. Aid agencies have a problem with this sequence, in almost everything they do. But for democratic governments that want to promote their values elsewhere, doing this well is a test of their own understanding of and commitment to principles of democratic good governance.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Thank you, Mr. Smillie.

We have 20 minutes remaining before going to motions. There will be five minutes by group.

We'll start with Mr. Wilfert, please.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Chair, thank you.

Mr. Smillie, your admonitions are quite interesting. I concur with you with regard to the notion of a patchwork approach.

I will ask you a couple of questions.

For example, we have not really had a coherent approach or policy in terms of good governance issues. I don't know that we are necessarily the best model at times. However, I won't get into the Senate.

The national endowment in the United States is a structure that the U.S. uses. What would you create here? In an ideal world, what would you create in terms of the type of structure, the tools, and the resources that you think we need? What would really be our objectives?

We can't be all things to all people. What kind of target audience do you think we should be looking at, given the fact that as late as 1995 we clearly didn't seem to have the right tools in place, and we haven't really developed them through CIDA as an instrument?

10:25 a.m.

Research Coordinator, Partnership Africa Canada

Ian Smillie

That's a very big question.

Now that CIDA has created an Office for Democratic Governance, perhaps that is the place where lessons will be rolled up and learned and remembered, but in fact we already have an International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development, and it is funded by Parliament. I've never understood why we need more institutions when we have institutions that are already there. If it's not doing the work that's wanted or needed, then it should be given the mandate and the marching orders to do it.

When I say it has been a patchwork approach, I'm not opposed to the idea of a patchwork approach because there is so much to learn. We actually don't know what all the answers are. My concern about the patchwork is that we aren't learning from it. We have a huge propensity in the aid business—and it's not just in this area, it's in the whole area—for what I call the failure to learn from failure. We promote success. We advertise success. We pretend we know what we're doing. We tell the Auditor General for certain we know exactly what we're doing. Everybody who has a project to pitch, whether they're inside CIDA or whether it's NGOs or anybody else out there, talks about the certainty with which the results will be achieved. The truth is that if we knew how to do all this, we would have done it years ago. If we knew how to create jobs in developing countries, if we knew how to end poverty, we would have done it a long time ago.

A lot of this is experimental. A lot of it is risky. We should acknowledge the mistakes. We shouldn't repeat them. We should acknowledge them, not punish them, but learn from them, and certainly not hide them.

That's a long, indirect answer to what you ask.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Should we have a clearer focus and not try to be all things to all people in terms of what we want to achieve?

10:25 a.m.

Research Coordinator, Partnership Africa Canada

Ian Smillie

I'm a bit of a contrarian on the idea of focus. We talked in the last couple of years about narrowing the geographical focus of what CIDA does. It's cut back to 25 countries, and I understand it is going to focus even more on 20. One of my concerns is that in the process of deciding which the 20 are going to be, we've cut off a lot of countries where there are real opportunities to do things. It isn't just Canada that's cut them off; everybody has cut them off.

A country that I know quite well and went to 40 years ago as a CUSO volunteer, Sierra Leone, has come out of a 10-year civil war, a horrible situation. They've had democratic elections. They've had a truth and reconciliation commission. They have a special court that is dealing with war criminals. They have an anti-corruption commission. It's not a great government, but it's the best government that country has had since independence. They are trying hard. They're not on our list. In fact, they're not on anybody's list. The Nordic countries, the most generous donor countries in the world, are not interested in Sierra Leone. Only Britain is, and to a lesser extent the United States. Everybody else is off looking for the better performers.

Mozambique, which is one of our favourite countries, is also a favourite country for 13 of the bilateral donors. Of course, focus would be good.

It would be nice if a couple of countries, at least, would focus on Sierra Leone, or if we coordinate this rush to focus and not allow countries like Sierra Leone to fall off the agenda.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Thank you.

We'll go to Madame Lalonde, pour cinq minutes.

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thank you very much for coming, Mr. Smillie. I would like to have you come back because the document that I have just read has raised many questions for me. Your vast experience could help us further our understanding on many points.

I'd like to talk about one paragraph that I found particularly inspiring. On page 2, it states:

A problem, however, for anyone spending government money in today's climate—one might say today's “fog”—of results-based programming, is the need to demonstrate cause and effect; to show that efforts aimed at democratization or improving human rights have actually had the intended results. This has become a kind of programming tyranny, one that has led CIDA and its grantees into an excess of planning and risk aversion, in what is essentially an emergent and risk-prone business.

I would like you to expand on this. Earlier you quoted Mintzberg, and I would like to hear what you have to say.