Foreign Affairs Committee on May 30th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Seeing quorum, I will call this meeting to order. This is the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

We are meeting today, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), to study Canada's role in complex international interventions that involve multiple foreign policy instruments focusing on Canada's efforts in Haiti.

We're very pleased to have with us today the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Development. We have seen him in Afghanistan. We have seen him in Europe. We see him now today before our committee.

Welcome to the foreign affairs committee, Mr. Minister. As normal, you would have a statement, and then there will be questions from your committee.

Mr. Minister.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

You are absolutely right, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank those who work on this committee. Indeed, as the chair said, our interventions in other countries are highly complex, and we must always make multinational efforts in foreign affairs.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for your invitation to be here today to speak about Canada's efforts in Haiti. This is perhaps one of the best examples of what you have just outlined as a situation where there are many countries involved in an effort to elevate the current situation and strife that is going on in Haiti today.

Canada's approach and expertise and long track record have, over the years, helped consolidate a leadership role in the international efforts to restore stability to a country that remains the hemisphere's poorest and most fragile state. We recognize the need for a long-term commitment from the international community to support Haitian priorities. We also realize the need for a more comprehensive approach towards emergency aid, security, rehabilitation, and long-term development.

Canada can continue to make a difference, building on past and recent investment to continue the leadership role that is expected by Canadians and Haitians and by key partners, including the European Union, Latin America, and the United States of America.

What happens in Haiti has an impact on Canada, the region, the US and our Caribbean partners. Haiti remains an important transit point for drugs and arms where organized crime and issues of illegal migration continue to pose significant challenges. The country's situation also poses health risks with the increased potential for the spread of disease in a region that is a key tourist destination for Canadians.

Canada's government-wide strategy has been focussed on creating and supporting conditions of success for Haiti's long-term reconstruction. There has been extensive cooperation and consultation between my department, CIDA, DND and the RCMP.

So, Mr. Chairman, what are the conditions here for success in Haiti today?

Security, first and foremost. The strengthening of democratic processes and governance must be combined, as always, with the key elements of human rights, reconstruction efforts, and political momentum. That is to say, there appears to be a focus amongst many of the international partners right now to help the situation in Haiti, so time is of the essence.

Security itself involves working closely with the United Nations stabilization mission in Haiti. DND and the RCMP have been supporting the pressing needs of security and stabilization by their presence. Restoring and maintaining security is also vitally important.

Up to 100 Canadian police are currently participating in the UN stabilization mission, which is mandated to ensure a secure environment, help restore law and order, and reform the Haitian national police. Canada maintains a strategic presence of key staff officers at mission headquarters, including the chief of staff and the commissioner position of the United Nations civilian police mission.

Canada is also working with Haitian authorities and our international partners to ensure that the new UN mandate for Haiti—replacing the one that will run out in August—adequately contributes to longer-term social and economic development needs that currently exist in Haiti.

Speaking to the democratic process and governance next, credible elections and the inauguration of an elected government were also key ingredients for long-term reconstruction goals and development in Haiti. Canada's contribution, both financial--over $30 million--and to the electoral process, is well recognized by Haitians and our international partners. Elections Canada, headed by Jean-Pierre Kingsley, led an international mission that included seven bilateral partners and some 130 Canadians as observers. Some of those included members of Parliament, as you're aware, including my colleagues Mr. Goldring and Ms. McDonough. I believe there was another member of the committee, if I'm not mistaken.

Haiti is Canada's second largest recipient of bilateral relations vis-à-vis aid and it is currently situated at about $190 million over the last two years. This is up $10 million from the original commitment.

In addition, Mr. Chair, $5 million was provided to support UN efforts to enhance electoral security, notably through the deployment of 25 Canadian police officers, experts, and the deployment of 3,500 national observers during that very critical period.

Outcomes of the February vote were reassuring, with an unprecedented 63% voter turnout, which delivered a strong mandate to President René Préval. This broad-based political support is a vital element to sustain longer-term stability and reconstruction.

Looking forward, Mr. Chair, Canada is committed to providing the necessary resources in helping re-establish effective public institutions, including law enforcement and the judiciary. That appears to be one of the key areas that still requires much attention and focus, and that is some of the lawlessness that goes on inside Haiti. So having a strong national police force and a judicial system of law enforcement is critical to the exercise.

With respect to human rights, I would like to underline that while progress was made in the area democracy, much needs to be done in the area of human rights. Haiti's weak legal system broaches human rights concerns through prolong detention without trial or sentencing.

In addition to our contribution of $190 million, Canada has played a lead role in developing and renewing the Interim Cooperation Framework with the Haitians and our international partners. In the coming days, my CIDA colleague, Minister Verner, will be briefing the committee and will provide further information in this regard.

Canada has worked to maintain Haiti as a top priority on the international agenda. We have made a point of pressing for continued engagement at the G-8, United Nations and Organization of American States and the Summit of the Americas Process. Canada is particularly pleased to see a leading role being taken up by our Latin partners, in particular, Argentina, Brazil and Chile as well as renewed engagement with the CARICOM.

Haitians taking ownership themselves over the current situation, Mr. Chair, is obviously one of the end goals. We have led efforts to bring the Haitian private sector to the table, that is, business and investment, most notably with a meeting in Ottawa last fall to discuss the minimal conditions required for economic recovery in the country. Again, this initiative met with good results, and we will be looking to a follow-up in the coming months.

On her recent trip to Haiti, Her Excellency the Governor General also engaged the private sector and civil society through an address to the Haitian Chamber of Commerce. I'm looking forward to meeting with the Governor General this week in advance of my own trip to Haiti in the coming week. I know she will have, for both personal and other reasons, much to impart from her visit, which was obviously highly publicized in Canada but, most importantly, well received within Haiti.

Capacity building, the role of parliamentarians, the role that the opposition plays in a Haitian parliament are also important experiences that members of this committee and those of you who participated in the electoral process can impart upon a Haitian parliament. More emphasis on social development is obviously what we look forward to in the future. All of this can happen with a more stable and sustained economy within the country.

Perhaps the most important lesson drawn from past efforts is the need for Haitians themselves to assume the leadership and responsibility for the implementation of their development agenda. The involvement of all sectors of Haitian society is key to putting all Haitians in charge of their future.

There is an upcoming conference that many of you may be aware of in July, where the international community will come together again to talk about the pledges that will be required in the coming days. That conference, I suspect, will garner a great deal of attention.

This leads to the comment on high-level political engagement. Visits of ministers and senior officials to Haiti and international conferences on Haiti are vital components of maintaining an international momentum that sends strong signals of the importance that we and others in the international community attach to stabilization and reconstruction efforts in Haiti.

In the last few months we've had an opportunity to demonstrate Canada's continued commitment to Haiti. I mentioned the Governor General's visit, but we also had the visit from former Prime Minister Latortue as well as from President Préval, who was here visiting Ottawa just a few weeks ago. At that time he made it very clear that his incoming government, which has yet to be sworn in, is very appreciative and is looking to Canada for this continued support.

I would also point out that the parliamentary secretary for foreign affairs, Peter Van Loan, also visited Brasilia in Brazil for an international conference on Haiti, which he was kind enough to attend in my absence and he has provided me updated information from that attendance.

We look forward, Mr. Chair, to robust Canadian participation in upcoming events such as the OAS general assembly in the Dominican Republic, which, as I mentioned, I will be attending, and the International Pledging Conference in July, in which Canada will be a participant.

Finally, next steps. As we have seen in the past and what appears to be approaching again, Haiti is at a crossroads. Significant obstacles continue to plague Haiti's prospects for recovery and reconstruction. Continued insecurity feeds on weak governance and institutional capacity and widespread corruption, exacerbating the deep and persistent social and economic development challenges.

The Haitian government must make efforts to reach out to opposition parties to include them in the consultations and evolve away from the highly adversarial nature of Haitian politics. Municipal and local elections should be held earlier rather than later to ensure the proper foundation for democratic development and provide the opportunity for Haitian citizens to have their say in the transformation of their lives.

The government must also take steps to develop and deal with a serious problem that continues to plague the country, that is, organized gangs that appear to be marauding in certain communities, providing terror and great instability to Haitian people.

Canadian leadership certainly does not mean going it alone, but what it does require is sustained political engagement and government-wide commitment to keep both Haitians and our international partners focused. We have learned from the failings of past international efforts in Haiti. We know that sustained international engagement, Haitian ownership and commitment, and broad, coordinated development cooperation are key ingredients for any success.

Lastly, Mr. Chair, now more than ever before, we must remain engaged with the new government in order to entrench the transformation process that will eventually ensure greater respect for human rights, the return of stability and the rule of law, and improve governance. It is a role that is expected of us from key partners such as the US and the European Union, and one that we can build upon for the development of the special relationships that we are working towards in the hemisphere.

The recent political developments as well as the actions and statements of President Préval give us cause for guarded optimism as we look forward towards the future of Haitians and of their country.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would be very pleased to take questions from members of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We'll go into the first round, a five-minute round.

Oh, it's a minister. We may have difficulty, given the late start, but if you want to go 10-minute rounds, we can go 10-minute rounds.

We'll begin with Mr. Patry.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, I'll stay as long as required.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Good. We do have two other guests coming right at 4:30 p.m., and we can maybe push them back somewhat, but I don't like extending it too long.

Mr. Patry. Thank you.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'm going to share my time with some of my colleagues, if you don't mind.

Merci, monsieur MacKay. Thank you very much for being here in front of us today.

Mr. MacKay, in your opening remarks you talked about security, democratic process and governance, human rights, reconstruction, political momentum, Haitian ownership, high-level political engagement as the next steps. That's a lot. You mentioned at the end:

We have learned from the failings of past international efforts in Haiti. We know that sustained international engagement, Haitian ownership and commitment, and broad, coordinated development cooperation are key ingredients for any success.

I've been to Haiti three times in the last three years, there is a persistent climate of insecurity over there. Recently, Rights and Democracy in Montreal and a coalition of Quebec NGOs released a letter that they sent to Kofi Annan concerning Haiti, and they said:

In the domain of human security, it is evident that MINUSTAH is obtaining very poor results.

And they go on to say:

we find it difficult to understand how MINUSTAH, which has been on the ground for nearly two years with a force of thousands of soldiers, hundreds of police and a strong infrastructure, seem unable to fulfil their mandate of re-establishing order and security in the country as well as moving towards disarmament.

My question is, knowing that the mandate of MINUSTAH, the United Nations stabilization force in Haiti, needs to be renewed next August, August 15 of this year, what can be done in the short term and longer term to improve the operational effectiveness of MINUSTAH notably in regard to human rights, disarming armed gangs, and the reform of a national police force?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Patry, for your question.

I believe what you're seeing now in Haiti is that Canada is assuming a leadership role. As far as the area of security itself is concerned, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, Canada is now playing a more active role on the security side; that is to say, we're engaged in more of the training. There are up to 100 police officers, RCMP and municipal, who are mandated to work with Haitian authorities and Haitian police, many of whom are in training, to effectively undertake the task, albeit a very challenging task, to restore law and order and stability in the communities themselves.

Canada holds the commissioner position there, as you know, and this is a very critical piece of the puzzle as far as Canada's contribution is concerned. That, I believe, being the biggest challenge, is going to take time. It's not as though you can simply impose security overnight without knowing that there will be engagement and resistance from those who are the beneficiaries of lawlessness. That is the same as is found in any country, including our own. Organized crime is an enormous undertaking to address, and there will be inevitable confrontations. And that is the sad reality in Haiti.

We have contributed specifically $5 million to the enhancement of security, so there has been money earmarked by Canada for security and training. That was particularly important, I would suggest, during the elections, which I think we should take as a telltale sign that increased efforts in the area of security can work. We saw in those elections increased participation, and enthusiasm on the part of the Haitian people to embrace the democratic process, and I think this again bodes well.

Yes, we can reflect on the past and some of the shortcomings that occurred. Some of the lessons learned are very important, but I think most importantly, to address your question directly, in the short term we can look at the recent successes and try to build on those, using the police and training officials we have there to continue to build on this foundation of stability. That is simply going to take hard work, training, and commitment on the part of those dedicated personnel who are there in Haiti doing the heaving lifting.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Minister MacKay.

Before turning the floor over to my colleague, I would like that you formally commit to making sure that our government remains in Haiti for as long as Haitians need Canada. I believe that it is very important that your government today should state a clear, precise and accurate position.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Well, certainly.

The government intends to remain in Haiti for as long as necessary in order to complete the reinforcement of international efforts undertaken with other partners. Our work is not done. Canada will therefore be there for an indefinite period of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Wilfert.

Oh, I'm sorry. Mr. Martin. I have Mr. Wilfert for the second round.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you, Mr. MacKay and Mr. Khokar, for being here today.

Along the lines followed by my colleague Dr. Patry, I have two quick questions. It must be very frustrating for all of us involved in what's happening in Haiti and has been happening for some time.

We have invested a lot of money. My question is, if we use the millennium development goals as a benchmark upon which we judge success or failure, and we invested $190 million over the last two years and a considerably larger amount prior to that, how are we doing with respect to the millennium development goals as they pertain to Haiti? Do we know how poverty has changed, or maternal health and mortality figures, or access to education? Also, do we know how many Haitian police officers we've trained? That, as you mentioned, is absolutely integral to the success and stability of the country.

Thank you.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Martin. Congratulations on your recent appointment to official critic for the area of foreign affairs.

From the statistics that I have, in addition to some of the active police, both RCMP and municipal police, and a very modest military presence that is there for training purposes, we also currently have retired police officers who are engaged in this training exercise in an effort to continue the stabilization against gangs and organized crime that's taking place. As to how we gauge the tangible results, it's a little more difficult.

As far as the number of officers who have been trained and what Canada and our police officers can take credit for, I couldn't give you those statistics. I can ask the department how much training has actually occurred and how many officers are currently through the training process. I'll undertake to get that information to you.

On the millennium goals, again, this is certainly a long-term project by anyone's estimation. I would suggest that Minister Verner, who will be here before you as well, would be in a better position to give you accurate information on how that money is being spent and where the Haitian people and President Préval have in fact requested the money be apportioned.

Again, I'm not saying this in any kind of a partisan or provocative way, but I would suggest that Canada has obviously been engaged over the longer term. In the 100-plus days since this government has been in office, we would have to go back over a period of time to try to gauge what Canada's contribution has done as far as reaching our millennium goals, specifically in the country of Haiti. But again, I'll provide that information to the committee and to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Madame Lalonde.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister MacKay. Kofi Annan said that the international community should be in Haiti for 10 years, but he should have also added the words “at least”.

I would like to briefly come back to the issue of security. Following Aristide's departure, this committee met with NGOs that submitted recommendations on how to restore security. Aside from what has already been said on the need for cooperation with the MINUSTAH and the national police, the NGOs said that the disarmament process should begin.

In 1994, following Clinton's intervention, the deployment of 24,000 soldiers, there has been no disarmament. Haiti continued to be invaded, to be the transit point of arms and drugs coming from the United States. Political gangs at all levels were able to obtain these supplies easily.

Many times, I asked questions in the House of Commons and I was told that MINUSTAH did not have a mandate to disarm. Will you commit to obtaining information and do what is necessary, out of respect for Prime Minister Préval's decisions, to disarm the country? Otherwise, we would be fooling ourselves when we talk about security.

Secondly, does your government have the intention of helping Haitians pick themselves up, rather than trying to do things for them? I know that the answer seems obvious, however, the tendency of those who intervene in Haiti has been to replace rather than help.

Will you commit to helping them? Those are my two points of principle.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Lalonde. With your permission, I will answer in English.

As far as the deployment is concerned, you're right, there have been a number of examples in the recent and even distant past of deployments to Haiti. They have been most successful, if I can put it that way, when they have been of an international and UN-backed nature. Canada participated until 1994. We initially had 530 soldiers as part of this UN-mandated interim force. They remained there from the period of arrival until some time in mid-2004.

The transformation in leadership of the UN force has occurred a number of times. I believe the Brazilians are currently leading the expedition there, and I believe that is due to change again some time in the summer, in August. There are no immediate plans for Canada to redeploy or to send personnel there. We currently have six Canadian Forces personnel there.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

My question did not have to do with the fact that you are replacing them, but on your ability to insist on disarmament, since you are one of the key players.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Well, there's no question whatsoever that greater focus by the UN forces there, by Canada's presence with policing, has to be on disarmament. And it's mainly, as you know, in the area of handguns, small arms. There may be some rifles as well, but the handgun issue in Haiti is acute.

There are, sadly, almost daily shootings as a result of the proliferation of handguns within the country. I know from officials there that this is currently a focal point. This is where they are concentrating their efforts, jointly with civilian police--our own, the multinational police force that's there, and the Haitian police who are in training--and they're working jointly with the military to address the issue.

In regard to your more altruistic question of the need of the Haitian people to take more responsibility and more active charge of their own future and their lives, this was the very powerful message brought by the Governor General during her visit. She, I think, really called for the empowerment of business leaders, of the community itself, to be more active participants in the building of capacity and participation in events that are aimed at elevating everyone's status.

The international community can do only so much without the full and active involvement of not only the politicians but the people themselves, community leaders who are currently facing enormous challenges. But I would suggest, and I think you're suggesting the same, that has to be the philosophy--that we are there to help and assist, but it is ultimately their decision-making and the path they choose that we have to assist them with so that they can walk on their own.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Madame Bourgeois, vous avez quatre minutes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Good afternoon, Minister MacKay.

According to the information and documents I have seen on Haiti, it seems as though the country is in a perpetual state of insecurity and impunity. The vast majority of non-government organizations and universities working in the country are saying that the problem of security must be resolved before moving on to something else.

In Afghanistan, there is a problem of insecurity. Canada was hard-pressed to send soldiers to help with the country's reconstruction in addition to establishing security. How is it that Canada has been very discreet, and timid when it comes to Haiti?

When Mr. Préval came to Canada, the Conservative government did not place a lot of emphasis on his visit. Why? Was there some embarrassment regarding Mr. Préval's visit to Canada?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for your question. I will answer the last part of your question first. There was no embarrassment, nor any efforts made to downplay President Préval's visit.

I had very productive bilateral meetings with him. He attended a reception at which some members of the committee were also in attendance. I can tell you—and I hesitate to say this—his health was not good while he was in the country. It was very evident to me that he was making considerable effort to force himself to attend these meetings. He's very determined, and I think that is a tribute to his leadership and his efforts to help his country. For that reason, many of the meetings were cut short and he went back to his hotel to rest. That may be the reason that perhaps it didn't receive more attention through the media. I'm just telling you this was my observation.

I'm reminded that at the time of his visit, he had not yet been inaugurated. He was not yet officially sworn in as president, which may have contributed to some of the protocol.

With respect to your question on the deployment, yes, Canada is part of a UN-backed mission that went to Afghanistan in our largest deployment since Korea. We currently have 2,300 troops there on a rotation that has been ongoing. Approximately 14,000 troops have now gone through that deployment rotation. The goals are similar. As you know, and as you have stated, the goals are to establish stability in the region. I would again suggest that it is political decision-making in many cases as to where Canada's troops are deployed. The deployment in Afghanistan took place under a previous government, and we supported it.

The deployment that took place previously in Haiti was the decision of another government. There is no current request for an increased presence of Canadian troops in Haiti. Given the presence of the large UN force there, which is led by Brazilians, I would suggest that there is always a possibility, but it has not come. We do not foresee it coming any time soon.

As has been the suggestion by many, including members of this committee, our focus is currently on the developmental and democracy-building side. I believe that in the various stages in which Canada engages in our efforts in global international development, this is where the focus in Haiti is most wanting. To that extent, Canada is playing what has always been a traditionally very strong and powerful role, with emphasis on the development side. Because of the large diaspora of Haitians in Canada, I think this is something that Canadians take very seriously.

But we are not losing sight for a moment that stability is important. Again, that is justification for the presence of domestic police and the efforts to train and assist in the setting up of a functioning legal system that respects the rule of law and that has a judiciary.

There may in fact be more that we can do. I suspect that's very much the subject matter of this committee. Maybe we need to send more judges. Maybe we need to send a committee of parliamentarians to talk about the necessity of an effective, functioning Parliament, because I think this is going to be a coming challenge.

I'll leave it at that, Madame.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Goldring is next, followed by Mr. Van Loan.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Minister and Mr. Khokar, for being here today.

Mr. Minister, in your talk you mentioned that Haiti is at the crossroads. I certainly would agree with that analogy from the short time that I was there, seeing the progress that has been made. The last election, I believe, showed a stabilizing factor. I would view it as the glass being half full. The turnout was maybe in the 30% range, but still, given the instability of previous elections and the relative stability of this one, that's a gain.

I was also visiting the country and seeing some industrial development too. The visit to the Canadian manufacture plant of Gildan produced the surprising revelation that although they had a well-run, clean plant of some 1,300 people, he had plans there for two or three more plants, so there were expectations of 4,000 or 5,000 jobs coming up. The concern here is that not all jobs will be in the garment industry, as this is; there are far more opportunities than that. There's an eager population, very capable of working in these particular areas, and the jobs are much needed.

But when we look at some of the other problems there--and probably some have to be overcome, and probably in the near term--the most important one that seems to really stick out is the one of Cité Soleil and the area that is occupied by the bandits, as you could call them. From a point of view of economic growth or encouraging tourism or even encouraging and growing democratic institutions and reforms, all of these are without basis if you don't have a secure country.

Mr. Minister, is a timeframe being looked at? Is there a stronger, more determined approach coming up in the near future on dealing with the instability, particularly in that large part of the capital city, and what could people expect on movement on that area?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Let me begin, Mr. Goldring, by acknowledging and thanking you for the personal commitment and initiative you've shown. I know you've visited the region a number of times and have a long-standing commitment and a will to make a difference, not only in Haiti but in the Caribbean region.

The Government of Canada is certainly cognizant that it is going to take perhaps a sustained period of time to achieve the results. There have to be benchmarks. There have to be noticeable indicators within all of these areas of development--economy, democratic capacity building.... I would suggest that stability on the domestic policing side is perhaps where the greatest focus in going to be required, as you've noted.

You've been to these cities and communities. There is still a very determined group of individuals preying upon the citizens of Haiti, trying, I would suggest, to capitalize on this vulnerable stage Haiti is currently experiencing. There comes a point at which there is a tipping point, a point at which it can fall back if the international community doesn't propel it forward with all of these areas of development and support, and policing is perhaps the most important right now.

I don't want to be repetitive, but I think the elections were the surest sign that the people themselves are tiring of this ongoing struggle. Based on evidence and reporting I've received, I think there is a growing frustration within the country itself that these gangs--these bandits, as you referred to them--are continuing to control a lot of the communities. Even within the cities, in many neighbourhoods people are literally living in fear for their lives, so an increased effort on the policing side is the area in which Canada has made a concerted effort.

We've talked about the disarmament issue. Demobilization of those gangs is of critical importance, and then reintegration of those participants--after they have been taken to justice, if that's what is required--is going to be important. Penal reform, I would suggest, is also a big issue. The putting down of roots of a judicial system that will bring about a respect for rule of law and accountability is again going to be a long-term exercise, but it's starting, and it appears to me that it's starting to take hold.

I look forward to visiting the region as you have, seeing firsthand what that progress really is, and, more importantly, hearing from the individuals there about where Canada should continue its effort in the most focused and perhaps diligent fashion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Mr. Van Loan.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Part of the object of our study is to look at Canada's efforts in the past and draw lessons from them. Haiti is a good focus for a study like that because Canada has had so many efforts in the past that have not met with success. Part of what we're trying to do is determine why that has been the case and what we need to draw, in lessons from the past, for the future.

In some of the preliminary discussions I've had, the theme that you draw out, the need for sustained international engagement, is one of the answers we keep getting; that the problem is that the international community has withdrawn too early in the past. Let me tell you, Canada's commitment is a very significant one. It is very much appreciated by the Haitians and by others.

The question becomes, if we're going to have sustained international commitment so that it's not only Canada but others who are staying there, we have to have some kind of plan and ability to keep others engaged and keep others committed. We just recently had the decision by Spain to withdraw their military commitment from Haiti, as Spain has done elsewhere in the world.

Have you any thoughts on what Canada should be doing to have other international partners either that aren't represented there make commitments to Haiti or that are represented there to maintain those commitments, so that it isn't just Canada left carrying the freight all the way?