Evidence of meeting #33 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was china.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:10 a.m.
NDP
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Reverend, it is very enlightening to hear your views.
A lot of people have come here and said China has moved tremendously--and I understand it. There are 1.3 billion, 1.4 billion people, and their growth seems to be steady and slow.
The question to you, sir, is this. The numbers have already been explained, but can you tell me how many Christians or Muslims there are in China? By that question, I mean the total number of Christians, Catholics, Protestants, all denominations put together.
9:10 a.m.
As an Individual
Muslims and Christians are almost an equal number now, according to.... Basically, let me see, there are 100 million Christians.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
About 100 million. That's a pretty big number. How do they get together and do their worship when the limitation is eight to twenty people? If you say 100 million people, there have to be an awful lot of churches, underground churches, storefronts, and whatever.
9:10 a.m.
As an Individual
Yes, this is encouraging everywhere.
Of course, I think for Muslims, basically, they're considered as a people's group. If you go to northwest China, almost every mile you will see a mosque.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Are they regionally distributed? In what part of China would the Christians be?
9:10 a.m.
As an Individual
Christians are all over China. Of course, people are meeting at homes. They can be registered and they're meeting at home. So that's why they have so many meeting places. One of the churches that we're helping has over 10,000 people. All of them cannot meet in one place, so they meet in different places, in homes and also in factories, in office spaces.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
The general view in certain minds is that the Canada-China human rights dialogue is not necessarily working and it has not actually achieved its objective and it's not going fast enough. So there's a fair amount of criticism. In your opinion, do you believe that the Canada-China bilateral human rights dialogue is succeeding? Or is it not succeeding?
9:10 a.m.
As an Individual
In a positive way I would probably say yes, it can be succeeding, with a special relationship...Canada and China.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
From what you have told us, there's no freedom of religion; you have members and the police come in. I know in certain other areas, as the economy grows the middle class grows, and there's more transparency, some say, in the government that is happening slowly. But particularly from the villages aspect, we still hear people from Falun Gong and others who say they're being persecuted. Could you shed some light on that?
9:10 a.m.
As an Individual
My personal view toward Falun Gong is that, basically, I really think the Government of China does need to control that, because that was threatening the government. When you see there is a huge number of people who protest and also destroy their own lives for the protest, I think probably that is something that needs to be controlled. Also, there is something going on with that religious sect. Really, for me, I feel that is not a religion, not a belief; it goes beyond that.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
So you feel it's a cult that needs to be controlled.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Would you say, sir, that whenever there's an organized association, a community, a religion...? Does the government feel threatened by any organized groups that may start to become political? Is that the reason, or is there any other reason?
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Could you shed some light? Would you be comfortable talking about the reasons, or are you not comfortable talking about that openly, since you are in China?
9:15 a.m.
As an Individual
Well, Canadian to Canadian, yes, it's open.
There's a threat in some communities, I think, for security reasons. Also, there's some nonsense going on when they practise--I repeat, practise--those religions and then encourage people not to use medicine, only by one way of doing. Those are the things that sometimes we do see, and it can be that we do see it needs to be dealt with, with some logic and reasonableness.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Merci.
Thank you very much, Reverend, for being here with us and sharing your experience.
You said in your opening remarks that you are working in law enforcement and human rights. In 1996-97 the Chinese government introduced a series of amendments to criminal law and criminal procedural law. In recent years also, I think in the 16th and 17th Communist Party congresses, there was a promotion of fairness and justice in the whole of the Chinese society and they promised to implement the rule of law involving the country's legal and justice system.
Do you see in your work a significant improvement for the Chinese society in the field of law enforcement, not just access to courts of justice but access to a just rule of law as reflected in international standards?
9:15 a.m.
As an Individual
Yes, they are working toward that. I will give you one example where we did that and then you can see it.
One time we brought a group of law enforcement people from the U.S. to visit one of the departments, the security bureau. We had a presentation. At the end of the presentation we exchanged gifts with the local police. One of the T-shirts handed to the local government police chief had a list of the people who had died on duty. He held that T-shirt and asked what those names were for and we told him the story. He turned back to his colleagues and told them that this was the way we needed to do that, to respect every law enforcement officer's life.
Right away after that, he told us that in one of the provinces in China, almost every day a police officer dies on duty. He said to be in law enforcement in China is a great danger, so we need to remember those who die on duty. Then he shared what happens in China today as a police officer. Basically, they have to learn according to the law and they have to respect the law. At the same time, they must follow the procedure and then do what is right.
These are things that are right now in practice. When we hear that, we say this is very respectful. Today, to be a policeman in China is still a very, very dangerous job.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you.
Do you see some improvements in the legal system, and do you think it will bring a bit of an improvement in human rights? Do you think if you have more democracy and a better legal system, it will improve human rights, and not the opposite?
9:15 a.m.
As an Individual
Yes, you're right. I think probably there's more democracy in China compared with the time I lived in China ten years ago. It's totally different now. Personally, living and working in China, I feel safer. Also, the people I work with, from the rural area to the city area, basically do feel safer.
