Foreign Affairs Committee on April 27th, 2009

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Chair, I actually want to move to consider the following motion. I want consideration from the committee to allow the following motion to be considered. I'm asking that a motion that is presently with the committee be brought to the committee right now.

The motion is that pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), Mr. Abdelrazik be asked to appear before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

What I need to do first, Chair, is ask that it be considered. It is the last motion. I ask that it be done first, and ask the committee to allow for that first, and then we could discuss the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay, but you're not moving forward your motion?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I am, but the way.... The clerk will help us here. I can ask for permission for it to be considered, because it's not in the right order.

That's my motion, to move that motion to the top of the list to be considered.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That's a debatable motion.

Mr. Obhrai, please.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Chair, I don't think that the point of order is debatable. First you have to seek approval to bring it forward before it can be debated, am I right?

[A voice]

That's what he's doing.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

I have a question for you, Mr. Dewar. This motion of yours, before we can respond, has a lot of security implications. My recommendation to you is that tomorrow morning we have the steering committee, which is in camera, and we can then be freely able to discuss this motion in camera tomorrow in the steering committee.

I think that would be the most appropriate thing to do before we move forward on this. That is what I would say to you right now. If you feel that you want to continue, we're going to discuss it tomorrow morning anyway, at nine o'clock, but in camera.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I appreciate that.

All we're doing here is putting forward a motion. If we want to talk about how that goes forward, then we can do that at the steering committee.

This has been brought up before. I have been working with this for over a year. I'm simply asking that we have Mr. Abdelrazik come to committee and to hear from him about the situation in the embassy. As you know, he'll be here tomorrow; he will be in the embassy.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

That's not the issue. The issue is that there are a lot of other legal implications over this issue. It would be best to discuss it tomorrow in camera. That would be my recommendation. If you feel that you do not want to move it to the steering committee, as you are there, Paul is there, Bernard is there, and I am there.... The four of us can discuss this question in camera.

If you say no, that you want to discuss it here, then I would have to say that I cannot agree to that at this stage.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

You can vote against it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That's right. If Mr. Dewar were to say that we won't discuss this today and that he will bring it tomorrow morning to the steering committee, then what?

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Then we will discuss it over there. I would put forward my argument among the other members that at the given time we'll make the decision to bring it back over here, whether they want to do it or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Would we able to have this discussion on Wednesday?

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

We'll decide tomorrow at the steering committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay.

[A voice]

It needs to come back to the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Well, that could come back on Wednesday.

Mr. Crête.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I think we can draw a distinction between adopting the motion today and deciding what steps to take to get him here.

I'm in favour of adopting the motion as it now stands, to extending an invitation to him to appear before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade and to getting the steering committee tomorrow to look into how we are going to proceed.

As for the substance of the matter, I'm prepared to vote immediately in favour of the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We're still on debate of this motion.

Mr. Abbott.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Let's see whether I understand this procedure correctly. Mr. Dewar, because this is the last motion in the sequence, is asking us to move the motion forward, to deal with it at this time. My understanding from Mr. Obhrai's comments is that—we are not in camera at this point—there are things he would like to discuss with the committee members so that the steering committee can be clear on what all of the considerations are that he is not at liberty to speak about here when we are not in camera, and he suggests that a good-quality decision could be made at that time.

I think the difference between having a vote on this now and later is two days. The situation has gone on, I'm sure Mr. Dewar would say, for far too long. That's fine; that's his perspective. But the point is that in order to make a quality decision, the steering committee needs to be able to have a candid discussion. It's that simple. To be agreeing to move forward with making this decision in the absence of good information does not, I think, serve the committee at all well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Lunney.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We gather, Paul, you're keen to put this thing forward, but we're talking about two days here. Given that you're going to discuss it tomorrow morning, a few hours from now, and that there are issues that are better discussed in camera, it seems to me a very reasonable request. I would hope members would look at it as a reasonable thing to hear all of the issues that are not convenient—or appropriate, perhaps—to discuss at this table today, before bringing it forward on Wednesday.

It's regrettably been a long time that this issue has been on the table, but perhaps it's not unreasonable to ask you to hold off until tomorrow morning to get all the information, before you pursue it in this venue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'm trying to sort out the proposal from the government. Perhaps we could address it this way: by having the motion in front of us. In other words, the first proposition is to have it in front of us. What the government is saying is hold on; wait until tomorrow and we can discuss it further. Perhaps the compromise would be simply to vote to have this motion in front of us. We can discuss it, as they have suggested, at the steering committee tomorrow, which allows us to still have the motion there, which is clearly what I was hoping.

It's a compromise. In other words, we would have the motion in front of us; we could discuss the details at the steering committee; we would be able to go forward after that. Otherwise we're in a situation in which you're basically saying “we'll have the motion, but not necessarily”.

Having dealt with this for more than a year, I ask when enough is enough. Many of these issues could have been brought to me before right now. The issue has been known for more than a couple of days; it's been brought up extensively. I've had two foreign ministers deal with it; this is the third. I think it's reasonable for me to ask that it be at least adopted as a motion, and in the spirit of compromise, which is what the government I think is asking for, that we not vote on the main motion but have the motion left at committee, to then discuss it at the steering committee.

Otherwise, I don't see the point of acquiescing, because all you're basically saying is, take it off the table and we'll discuss it later. Well, we've taken it off the table, and it's been a year. I think what we need, if we're going to do this, is to see the motion adopted; we then go to steering, and then it's able to come back.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

This is the first time this specific motion has.... Obviously, you've just tabled the motion, haven't you?