Evidence of meeting #21 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Excellency Bawoumondom Amelete  Ambassador of the Togolese Republic to Canada, Embassy of the Togolese Republic
Excellency Juliette Bonkoungou Yameogo  Ambassador of Burkina Faso to Canada, Embassy of Burkina Faso
Excellency Nana Aicha Mouctari Foumakoye  Ambassador of the Republic of Niger to Canada, Embassy of the Republic of Niger
Louise Ramazani  Minister-Counsellor & Chargé d'Affaires, a.i. of the Republic of the Congo to Canada, Embassy of the Democratic Republic of the Congo
Excellency Mouldi Sakri  Ambassador of the Republic of Tunisia to Canada, Embassy of the Republic of Tunisia
Excellency Honoré Théodore Ahimakin  Ambassador of the Republic of Benin to Canada, Embassy of the Republic of Benin

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Bonjour, chers collègues. Welcome.

This is meeting 21 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development on Wednesday, May 27, 2009.

This afternoon we will be reviewing our main estimates for 2009-10, and we're very pleased to have appearing before us today the Honourable Bev Oda, Minister of International Cooperation. Accompanying the minister we have, from the Canadian International Development Agency, Ms. Margaret Biggs, president, and Christine Walker, chief financial officer.

We thank the minister for working with our committee and the clerk to make this appearance possible.

I should also indicate at this time that we have a number of ambassadors from different African countries here with us this afternoon. We certainly do look forward to having them appear in the second hour as part of our study on the key elements of Canadian foreign policy dealing with Africa.

Before we move to the minister, I've asked the committee's indulgence and cooperation in moving into committee business just for a moment in order to pass the steering committee report. We should have perhaps done this last Monday, but this allows the clerk to make the necessary arrangements to fill the schedule for the upcoming week and it also just lets you know that your subcommittee has been meeting.

So you've had a chance to look at this.

Mr. Dewar.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I'd like to move the report.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Is everyone in favour of accepting the report as circulated?

(Motion agreed to)

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Also, if you take a look at the report, you'll see that we have the legal opinion back from the law clerk. Would you want that circulated today? It's still in translation. We could possibly give you a copy of it after. It will be out tomorrow morning.

Do you want that then, Mr. Dewar?

All right, I'll give the clerk the go ahead to circulate that as well, and it will be sent out. Thank you for that.

Madam Minister, welcome again. We want to thank you for appearing on these main estimates. You're no stranger to the way this goes about. We look forward to your comments, and then we'll move into the first round of questioning. I will remind the committee that with the minister here, the first round of questioning is a ten-minute round.

Madam Minister.

3:35 p.m.

Durham Ontario

Conservative

Bev Oda ConservativeMinister of International Cooperation

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am very pleased to have an opportunity to meet with you and the members of your Committee today.

CIDA's main estimates reflect our ongoing efforts to ensure that Canada's international assistance is supporting the world's most vulnerable people responsibly and effectively.

Over the past decades, the international community has made significant progress in helping to reduce world poverty. The percentage of people living on less than $1.25 per day has been cut in half. That means that between 1981 and 2005, a staggering 500 million people managed to climb out of poverty.

Until most recently, the economic crisis had barely touched the developing world. However, the World Bank now estimates some 40 low-income countries are highly vulnerable. The latest forecasts report that the economic crisis could drag down 50 million to 90 million more people into extreme poverty.

Clearly, foreign aid must be part of the solution to mitigate the impact of the economic crisis in the developing world. The reality is that in developing countries there are no quick fixes. The impacts on the lives of their populations will be deeper, more widespread, and longer to remedy.

In the face of this, it is critically important that donor countries keep official development assistance on track, and we are on track to meet our commitment to double Canada's international assistance to $5 billion annually by next year. Furthermore, we met our G-8 commitment to double our aid to Africa, with a total of $2.1 billion in the fiscal year just completed, a full year before the G-8 commitment deadline. And we have made multi-year pledges to the Americas, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Asia, including Afghanistan.

More importantly, our government will live up to its commitments. Since taking office, our government has committed to make our international assistance more effective and make a real difference in the lives of the people living in poverty by making it more efficient, more focused, and more accountable, and we have taken steps to do so.

First, for decades it was common practice for donors to pledge their aid with strings attached. It was known as tied aid, requiring that the needed goods and services be acquired in the donor country. The OECD estimates that tied aid makes international contributions 30% less efficient and 35% less efficient in the case of food aid.

I know this is not the kind of efficiency Canadians expect from us, so last April I announced that Canada's food aid would immediately be fully untied. Agencies such as the World Food Programme can now use Canada's money and buy the appropriate food at the best prices in areas closest to the hungry. Furthermore, Mr. Chairman, we will untie all of our aid by 2012-13 to gain even more value for Canada's contributions.

As an agency, CIDA itself will also be undertaking efficiency action. When people are on the ground seeing the conditions in the country, they are better able to react quickly, form more rigorous assessments of needs, develop appropriate responses, and reduce the decision-making process. So we are increasing the number of staff in the field, with more delegated authority and the flexibility they will need. This step will reduce the lengthy approval process and Ottawa-centric approach currently in place.

But decentralization alone is not enough to make CIDA more effective and meet the expectations of Canadians. We are determined to strengthen the monitoring and evaluation of CIDA's assistance programs. CIDA will engage independent auditors to measure results, and external, non-CIDA representatives will sit on CIDA's internal evaluation committee.

Accountability is also about being transparent and providing information to Canadians. Consequently, in addition to its required annual reports to Parliament, CIDA is now creating a “development for results report” that will show Canadians how their tax dollars are making a difference. We will do our best to communicate meaningful results and be open about setbacks that sometimes thwart our best efforts.

I also believe that more effectiveness and impact can be achieved with greater focus. We are increasing the focus of our bilateral program, the program that supports mainly development programs and projects in countries rather than aid, and that represents 53% of CIDA's total budgetary appropriations.

It has been said that Canada's bilateral spending was spread too thinly over too many countries and was too diffused, working in multiple sectors, making it hard to see how and where results were being achieved. To address this, I announced that CIDA will invest 80% of its bilateral program resources in 20 countries of focus. Those 20 countries were selected based on an analysis of their needs and their capacity to realize positive outcomes from our development efforts and in alignment with Canada's foreign policy priorities. To ensure consistency in the future, any changes to the list of 20 countries will require cabinet approval.

As I have noted, and I stress once again, other countries not selected as countries of focus will continue to receive Canadian aid through CIDA's other programs and will remain eligible to access the remaining 47% of our total aid budget. And of course Canada will always respond to the needs of victims of natural disasters or conflict through CIDA's humanitarian assistance program.

Having taken steps to focus geographically, Canada's international efforts must also be focused on fewer areas of activity or sectors. Historically, CIDA's aid has been too diffused and scattered, as I said, across literally dozens of different activities in multiple sectors, so that our money had limited impact, without the critical mass needed to make real gains.

We have now established three priority themes that will guide CIDA's work going forward: increasing food security, stimulating sustainable economic growth, and securing the future of children and youth.

Let me say a few words about each.

First, food security. Last year about this time, the food crisis, caused largely by higher food prices, captured the world's attention. The FAO estimates that the number of undernourished people in the world increased by 75 million in 2007 and 40 million in 2008. The impact of the economic crisis will be immense on the ability of millions to avoid starvation. The world's poorest live on less than $2 a day and spend 50% to 80% of that on food. In fact, the number of chronically hungry people is expected to climb to more than one billion this year.

CIDA will continue to respond to the need for emergency food aid. In fact, Canada is the third-largest single country donor to the World Food Programme. We will also be placing a high priority on initiatives that will meet the micronutrient needs of those living in poverty.

But without an adequate supply of food, development is impossible. The World Bank estimates that GDP growth from agriculture benefits the income of the poor two to four times more than growth in other sectors. Given that so much of the developing world is agriculturally based, I believe we must pay more attention to agriculture in developing countries. Whether it be with improved inputs, technical resources, the rehabilitation of degraded farmland, or irrigation, this will result in greater food self-sufficiency and food security, our first thematic focus.

We have seen how the power of a vibrant economy can reduce poverty. Countries in Asia, in Latin America, and in Africa have shown over and over again that growing the economy is the best way to help people lift themselves out of poverty permanently, and economic growth will be an essential part of helping developing countries weather the economic downturn.

It was noted at the recent World Bank-IMF meetings that economies of developing countries will grow by only 1.6% this year, compared to 6.1% last year. Canada has contributed significantly to the IMF and the World Bank and regional development banks so they can make financing more accessible to developing countries. However, it has been reported that in developing countries the private sector generates 9 out of 10 jobs, so we must create more business opportunities and support entrepreneurship and industrial development in these countries. These efforts will result in productive employment and incomes for the poor.

Elements that support economic growth could be skills training, access to financing, such as micro-credit, protection of property, and the needed supporting infrastructure. Of course, all of our development work in both agriculture and economic growth must consider the environmental impact of the project. Furthermore, all of the gains we achieve must be sustainable in the future for the next generation. Today, the fate of that generation, the children and youth living in extreme poverty, is the most distressing tragedy of our time. There are the needless deaths of 10 million children a year from preventable diseases. There are millions who do not yet have access to a quality education. More than half of the child population in developing countries, some one billion children, live in poverty.

Our government has strongly supported children and youth who face these realities, and we are continuing to support the health of women to reduce maternal and infant mortality, but we need to do more. Keeping children alive is only part of the equation. We want them to grow and prosper by providing children and youth with quality basic education and training so that they have the opportunity to live full, productive lives and engage meaningfully in their communities. This is particularly important now, as some are forecasting a youth tsunami. In 67 countries, up to 60% of the population is now under the age of 30. Through to 2020, some of the world's poorest and often most politically unstable countries will have the largest youth population, including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Colombia, and parts of Africa. Consequently, it is imperative that we make a real difference in the lives of children today for a stable and more secure tomorrow.

These three things--food security, economic growth, and children and youth--will be core for CIDA going forward. But as we have seen in Afghanistan, there can be no development without security and stability.

One billion of the world's poorest people currently live in states where crime, violence, insecurity, and insurgency are part of their daily lives. Ensuring security and stability is of the utmost importance, and Canada's response will build upon its engagement and lessons learned in countries like Afghanistan, Haiti, and Sudan. Our aim is to ensure that the basic needs are met while helping willing countries develop the capacity to self-govern, while shifting from aid dependency to responsibility and local ownership of projects and programs. This requires that good governance be integrated into all of our work in developing countries, as will sound environmental management and sustainability.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, our government pledged to make Canada's international assistance program more efficient, more focused, and more accountable--in short, more effective.

By untying aid, decentralization, more accountability, and through greater bilateral and thematic priorities, we are taking action. Setting priorities is fundamentally about making choices, but I believe that our agenda for aid effectiveness reflects the values of all Canadians. We are committed to making our aid make a difference in the lives of those living in poverty.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to speak with the committee today.

I am now available to take your questions.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Pearson, you have 10 minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair. I'll be sharing my time with my colleagues.

Minister, welcome. Ms. Biggs, Ms. Walker, it's nice to have you here. I do want to start by thanking you for the initiative and taking the leadership for untying aid. I think a lot of us have been looking for that for a long time, and we appreciate very much what you have done there.

This is a meeting about estimates, and in going through the estimates, there were a number of trends I was trying to look for. It seemed to me that private sector development was number two in those trends; health was number one. It seemed that as the trends were growing, health actually decreased in this last while, but private sector development continued to increase. If it kept going on that trend, eventually private sector development would surpass health. I'm simply trying to get your observation on that trend. Is there a reason for that? Also, can we see more of this in the future?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

I think your observation reflects that over the past year we've been working with many of the developing countries, and they've put together plans. They have health plans that we are contributing to and supporting. The other very important movement I see, particularly in those countries that are willing to take responsibility, is that they see economic growth as very critical to their long-term stability. These are countries that are willing to invest to their capacity into economic growth.

As you know, in Haiti we've recently completed a dialogue with the Haitian government, which came up with a plan to reduce poverty. It is founded and based on the economic growth of Haiti. It's in concert with the United Nations, which undertook with Professor Collier from the U.K. to look at what would be long-term opportunities for Haiti.

It has been observed in many countries that aid and development have been undertaken, but again, people are frustrated because there doesn't seem to be the progress that people would like to have seen. When a country indicates that economic growth is important to them, we have to now move. We've seen the success of micro-credit, and what they're asking from us is this: how do those people who benefited from micro-credit move to the SME level? So we're working and putting our support behind that, because we believe, coupled with our efforts in vocational training, making sure we work with our other country partners on infrastructure needs, that that will create the jobs.

I think we would all agree that nobody wants to continually be receiving handouts. What they want are the opportunities to better themselves, to improve their incomes, so they can provide for themselves and their families. So you're seeing a little bit of that trend.

Will we be reducing in the health area? Absolutely not. We will not. If you look at our health commitments and our support for the global fund for AIDS, tuberculosis, and malaria--the catalytic initiatives are extra-supportive for tuberculosis--our commitment to stay in Afghanistan and support the polio eradication campaign, you will see we're committed to health.

You have to couple that with our intent in our food security theme, to increase the attention of the world and our own efforts in the micro-nutrient nutrition provisions there. When you put this all together, we are not abandoning health, absolutely not. We're going to find the most effective ways, as we're doing everywhere else, but we also want to support countries that are now indicating that they want to start taking responsibility themselves, and we'll share in that responsibility.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Patry, go ahead. I think Mr. Rae will come in on this one as well.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you, Minister.

In the part of your Budget Plan for 2008 that deals with savings from CIDA's Strategic Review, the government says that the Agency is currently re-organizing its multilateral programs in order to target fewer organizations. Which organizations are being targeted by CIDA? And, what were the selection criteria?

Also, can you confirm or deny that your government is considering reducing its financial contribution to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, known as UNRWA?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

Thank you very much for your question. Merci.

In terms of multilateral international organizations, what we're doing across the board at CIDA is undertaking to ensure that when we contribute to an organization, it will achieve the results and the objectives that we have laid out for CIDA; it will be the most effective; it will be actually well managed.

As it will be attested to, when there are evaluations or audits done of organizations, I actually ask to read them myself. When there are observations about how an organization can improve itself, I ask, before we commit money, what they've done to correct those observations themselves.

Basically, we have to be focused even in our contribution to multilateral organizations. We want to find the most effective organizations, the organizations that are, again, looking at outcomes, that are well managed, that are fiscally responsible, etc.

Consequently, we're doing that review, but we have not selected and so on; the review is being undertaken. I will tell you that there are organizations that we have already identified as being very responsible and very effective on a multilateral basis. The World Food Programme is a good example. The Red Cross is a good example. We've identified those agencies within the United Nations that we believe are very effective.

In terms of the UN, you've asked about UNRWA, particularly related to the Middle East and Gaza. I've met with the head of UNRWA. We've had very frank discussions with UNRWA. I know they play an important role for the international community in the West Bank and Gaza. I put some questions and I got some very frank, objective answers from the head of UNRWA.

We support UNRWA, because it does play an important role. There are some questions about UNRWA. I think we all can remember that the UN reported, during the conflict, that schools were actually being bombed. I asked the head of UNRWA why it took three weeks to correct that report: the schools themselves weren't bombed, and the bombing was happening outside of the schools. I indicated that it was very important. We, as an international community, rely on UN reports, so we have a high degree of expectation of the accuracy of those reports. It was recognized that they do have this responsibility, and that they will be looking at it.

We had other discussions. I know you're familiar with some of the other issues about UNRWA and the education system they're providing. We had very frank discussions with them about that.

So we do support UNRWA, but it doesn't mean that we don't question or that we don't ensure that any organization that we support is totally reliable, can meet the expectations, and can serve us as well as the people they're there to serve.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Madam Minister.

Mr. Rae.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

On that subject, Minister, you will be aware that there are many concerns being expressed about Canada's position with respect to UNRWA.

I'd like to simply ask you, what discussions do you have with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and with the department, about the implications of any decision that would lead to a reduction in funding for UNRWA?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

I have conversations with not only the Minister of Foreign Affairs. As you know, we have a minister for the Americas, when it's related to the Americas, and a Minister of International Trade. Certainly we are making great strides in the whole-of-government approach to the work we do, not only in development but in our foreign relations.

On the UNRWA situation, they're familiar with the meetings and the concerns I have with UNRWA. I've indicated the conversations I've had with the head of UNRWA. They support that I do my due diligence, express concerns where I have concerns, and make sure we get adequate responses from any organization.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

The concern is also what other countries are doing with respect to UNRWA. This isn't a unilateral decision that Canada would make on its own. I presume there are management discussions with the UN organization on questions of accountability that aren't simply bilateral relations between Canada and UNRWA.

This is an issue of enormous sensitivity on Canada's responsibilities for holding the refugee gavel, which we received from the Madrid conference in 1993. So I hope that whatever concerns you have are not simply personal ones. There are issues that are shared throughout the government because of the impact that any unilateral cut by Canada would have on Canada's position on the Middle East and other issues we have.

You have to put an end to the speculation, because it's affecting very seriously a lot of the other bilateral political relations we have in the Middle East.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

First of all, no decisions made on behalf of the government or CIDA are personal decisions. We undertake a whole-of-government approach, and significant decisions made on behalf of CIDA and the government are certainly not personal. They're done in the interest of Canadian taxpayers and citizens and their relationships with the world.

I fully reflect that situation. I have spoken to other donor countries. I've even had a conversation with Ban Ki-moon at the United Nations. He indicated that Canada was not the only country expressing some concerns about UNRWA.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Madam Minister.

Madame Deschamps.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Minister. I have three questions for you.

In your opening statement, you said that your government is “on track to meet our commitment to double Canada's international assistance to $5 billion annually by next year”. Are you able to tell me what percentage of Canada's GNP that represents?

You also said that all changes to the list of the 20 core countries will now have to be approved by Cabinet, for strategic reasons. Do those reasons jibe with the trade agreements that your government is currently negotiating with a number of countries, including Colombia and Peru?

You have withdrawn from your new list of core countries eight African countries, adding instead four Latin American countries. How were the new countries selected? Did you hold consultations? If so, whom did you consult? According to data provided to me by the Canadian Council for International Cooperation, the 2005 list contained more poor countries than the 2009 list. Based on the UN's human development index, 11 of the countries on the 2005 list were ranked as having poor human development. By comparison, only seven of the countries on the 2009 list were deemed to be weak in terms of human development. Knowing that, can you tell me why you decided to remove those African countries and add countries such as Colombia?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Ms. Deschamps.

Minister.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

Merci. First of all, let me say that yes, we will be targeting the $5 billion by next year. As far as the relationship goes, in the most recent OECD report that came out in March of this year, it has been noted that for Canada, the ODA level is up over 12% due to our scaling up of our overall aid contributions and our contributions to the World Bank. Canada is one of the top 10 countries in ODA contributions in 2008. In fact we surpassed the DAC country average, the European Union average, and the G-7 average. In fact, as you will know, we've increased to a level of 0.32%.

As you know, the ratio between ODA and GNI depends on the economy of the country, so looking at the situation that all the developed countries are in presently, I'm watching the contributions closely.

Canada has maintained its commitment to increase its international assistance. We are doing that every year. Other countries have been decreasing their international assistance. In fact, Italy, for example, threatened to decrease its international assistance by 57% or 58%. Through international discussions, they've reduced that reduction, but unfortunately, they're still reducing by over 40%. When we see this happening, we always have to make sure that we are going to be effective, and there's more coordination amongst the countries that we're looking at.

This leads me to how we selected the countries. Canada is not the only one that's been focusing geographically. Other countries have been doing so, and in fact some of them took some of these steps before Canada did. When I look at the various countries, the African countries, to see who has increased their contribution to those countries, and what kinds of commitments, what efforts they are making, we're also looking at the effectiveness of those things. We want to work with the African countries. We're working with the African Union. We're supporting the African Development Bank. Some countries prefer the multilateral approach because it's closer to home, and they have more impact on saying what can be done in that country, so we're looking at that.

When I look at the actual countries and the impacts on what is being done there, I would tell you that generally, across the board, the United Kingdom and the European Union have increased their support in Africa, but they're decreasing, at the same time, in the Americas. We have the Netherlands, which now potentially is going to leave Haiti completely--and I've spoken to the head of the Netherlands agency.

If you look at Australia, they're moving their focus to the South Pacific, to countries within their region. I would say to you that there is a regional realignment happening.

As to how we looked at the African countries, as I pointed out, need and level of poverty were one of the criteria, and an important criterion, but only one of the criteria. The second criterion, I think, deserves as much attention as the level of poverty. In fact, if you look at how much has been invested by the western world into Africa, it's over $23 trillion. I'm as discouraged about this as others are. This is why it's important for us to make sure our contribution--and other countries are doing the same--produces real results. We have to look at the way that aid is being done, etc. It's the capacity of the countries.

This is a real tragedy. We've seen many countries that we thought were progressing really well, and yet, when you look at those same countries.... If you look at a country like South Africa, it was triumphant, and we thought it was moving along very well, and now it has some challenges. If you look at Kenya, it was moving along very well, and now if you look.... We are also seeing an increase in conflict and refugee situations, etc. So events and situations evolve.

We look at countries and ask, where is the country and the government willing to take responsibility? Even if it's in one sector, we would prefer to work with a government that's willing to work in that sector.

I met recently with an African ambassador from a country that is very, very rich in natural resources. The country has significant GDP growth, but there is a particular humanitarian situation there. I asked the ambassador—and I'm hoping I'll get information from them—what is your government willing to do to help address this humanitarian situation? We will partner with them; we will work with them.

But I think the thing here is that we know the way to ensure long-term, sustainable movement out of poverty is to help the governments themselves take over that responsibility, or else we're continually going to have countries that are aid dependent. And that does not help, I believe, the social stability and the political stability of a country. They want to see their own leadership providing them with the needs they have. So that's a very important criterion.

The third criterion as a government is that we have policies and priorities, but we do not, and we will not, tie our aid only to the countries where we have any trade or economic interests. For the countries we look at, yes, we are undertaking trade negotiations with Peru and Colombia, but there were other countries on that list with whom we have no trade relationships and where we don't have an economic interest. There is an immense need, but there is an ability to make a difference in that country.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Madam Minister.

Ms. Lalonde.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Minister. I listened carefully to your comments, but I have to say you did not convince me. There are a number of points I would like to raise.

First of all, to our knowledge, before making a spectacular shift and removing eight African countries from your list of core countries — which happen to be Francophone — you did not in fact consult anyone who has worked or is currently working in these countries. We find that surprising. Indeed, it is a worrisome surprise, particularly since you are telling us that the next list will only be amended following a decision by Cabinet. That is a clear indication of the importance of this shift.

Second, you are probably aware that the Quebec National Assembly unanimously passed a resolution asking you to reinstate the former list. Indeed, some countries have been abandoned and the Quebec National Assembly believes it is also responsible for helping NGOs and community groups that have acquired a great deal of experience and play a major developmental role in Francophone Africa.

Third, I would like to ask you a question. Given what you have said, how can you continue to say that you will meet the Millennium Development Goals? We cannot see how you will be in a position to do that. Indeed, no one we have spoken to sees how that could be possible.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

Merci, madame. Let me just put some information on the table--and I want to correct this.

This is something that we get too obsessed with, whether we're on the list or we're not on the list, etc. We are not abandoning any country and we have not abandoned any country. What we said was that in 20 countries we are going to focus our work to make sure it is coherent, that it is going to be better coordinated, and we're going to focus on certain sectors where we can make a difference.

I also indicated in my presentation this morning that even if you were not on the list first, any project that is being undertaken in that country now will be honoured until the end of that. We will then look at the needs in that country, and we're not going to abandon it. If we have an effective program that's making a difference, that's making a significant difference in the reduction of poverty in that country, we will support that program.

I want to also point out that 47% of the remainder of CIDA's entire budget is available to countries not on the list. We're not abandoning any country. In fact, in eight of the Francophonie countries, our programming for Francophonie countries under our government in 2007 and 2008 was $141 million. Last year it increased to $208 million. We hosted the Francophonie. I have talked to DESI and Oxfam-Québec. Oxfam-Québec is a very effective organization, a wonderful organization. There are so many. I went to a school in Gonaïves, in Haiti, that is supporting a primary school and a secondary school that was just devastated by the hurricanes last year. I visited them. They're doing wonderful work as well in Haiti.

I've travelled to francophone countries. What we're saying is, as I said, not to be on the list does not mean Canada will not be there to work with the best organizations. What we aren't going to do—and I will be very frank about this, Mr. Chair, if I could—is put a little bit of money into one or two projects in every country. When I look at country by country, for example--

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Madam Minister, very quickly.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

If I look at a country like Malawi--$12 million. We will be focusing on HIV/AIDS in that country.

I can go country by country and tell you where good work is being done in that country. If it's good work, if it's showing results, we will be there.