Evidence of meeting #3 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was americans.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Frank Graves  President, Ekos Research Associates Inc.
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Angela Crandall

4:35 p.m.

President, Ekos Research Associates Inc.

Frank Graves

Again, that's an excellent and complicated question. I believe this should be a really prominent focus for us in the coming year, because I do believe that this thickening of the border, which is a term the Americans don't like, has not been particularly healthy.

Our research shows that there will be sizeable portions of both the American public and the Canadian public who are simply not going to travel as a consequence of WHTI. It's more focused on those people who are not particularly affluent, on people who are going to be crossing the border in their vehicles. With air travel, the effects largely have already been dealt with and 95% of people got their passports.

The numbers would be very, very large in terms of the economic consequences of people who would have travelled but aren't going to do so now because of this.

My optimistic scenario is that in terms of sheer risk analysis, there are better ways to deal with this with less economic cost, and there might be some receptivity to that, given some of the shift in both the public mood in the United States and the administration as well.

There are also other interesting ideas that we see emerging from some of the research that we've been doing on security and borders. For example, Canadians and Americans both seem to favour a shift to using electronic technology, information technology, as a method for reducing the intrusiveness and costs, time, and inconvenience of the border. If they acknowledge that this stuff is a necessary evil, then there is a sense that perhaps it could be dealt with, that rather than being patted down or asked to take off your belt and remove your shoes, maybe there would be technologies. In an ideal world we find that Canadians in growing numbers support the notion of a national identity card with a biometric. It sounds like something that would be very scary. In fact, we find the vast majority of Canadians now say that would be a good idea. I found as well when I polled the United States, which supposedly would be completely allergic to national identity, given their libertarian traditions, that a slim but significant majority of Americans would support a national identity card.

Ideally, in Canadians' best world, they would have a system of virtual passports that would be triggered by facial biometrics, and bad guys would be ferreted out by machines, and I wouldn't have to be annoyed by the nuisance of all the bells and removing my shoes and so forth. I think there's reason to believe that in the absence of achieving the more obvious goal of trying to soften or eliminate some of the WHTI initiatives, progress on the technology front will help to at least provide a more manageable and convenient world. There is growing resistance in consumers.

The other interesting area is that Canadians would like the idea of a unified approach to managing security so they would go along with the idea of a North American no-fly list. They don't like the idea of an American no-fly list being imposed, particularly in travelling in Canada, but they would be in fact supportive of one that was managed jointly. This is an area where Canadians and Americans would support shared approaches to dealing with the intelligence information. The solutions for Canadians more and more lie in the merger of intelligence and technology.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Graves.

Mr. Patry said he had a very, very short question.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

You spoke at length about security considerations between the countries, about passports and about the Arctic. Do both countries cooperate on immigration matters? I'm talking here about immigration and the movement of workers.

4:40 p.m.

President, Ekos Research Associates Inc.

Frank Graves

Yes, I do. As I mentioned, there are sharp differences in Canadian and American outlooks on immigration, which have been going in a different trajectory. Now, it's very important to recognize that American attitudes to immigration are so heavily influenced by concerns about what goes on at the southern border that it's difficult to disentangle. Even trying to take that apart, it's still the case that Americans, as part of this more protectionist and isolationist sentiment that's emerged in the last few years, have been more wary and concerned about immigration than they have been at other periods in time.

I do also point out that of all the countries in the world, Canada is seen as the least threatening. That doesn't mean Canada is seen as harmless. All countries are seen as potentially harmful, as is the domestic movement of people within the United States.

We have found for some time that Americans would support the free movement of workers from Canada through the United States, and Canadians would also support that. When we extend those questions to include Mexico, we find that Canadians do still support this. Canadians say they would support the free movement of Mexican workers in Canada, but Americans know the support level drops 20% or 30%. There's still a sizeable constituency that would support it, but there is a real asymmetry in attitudes to Canadian and Mexican labour among the American public.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you all very much.

Thank you again, Mr. Graves. We certainly appreciated your information. You mentioned earlier that you had some other resources or charts or whatever. If you have something, although maybe I had better be careful what I'm asking for--

4:40 p.m.

President, Ekos Research Associates Inc.

Frank Graves

I'll keep it small.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

If you do have some that you could pass on to the committee, I know it would be very much appreciated.

We're going to suspend for one minute and then move into committee business.

Thank you very much.

4:44 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I call this meeting back to order.

First of all, under committee business, we want to let you know that we have confirmed a couple of witnesses for February 23. The department is able to appear that day as well. If you have a calendar, you may want to put this into that time slot.

We have a number of motions. We have two motions from Mr. Dewar on the order paper--

February 11th, 2009 / 4:44 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

And mine.

4:44 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

--and Mr. Obhrai's.

Paul, did you want to move these forward today?

4:44 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

It would be nice.

4:44 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Okay. You have the first motion.

Pardon me?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

You didn't let him finish.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

He wasn't at his chair.

Both motions or one before the other or what?

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Yes, certainly. I'd like to just get through the first one because part of it we've already done. We mentioned this last time. Now that we have the Afghanistan report, which will be coming on whatever date we agreed to, it's just the two parts that are left to table, because the first part is redundant since we agreed to have that done for February 26. I think that was the agreement.

It would be to move the sixth and seventh--

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right. So you're moving that motion forward.

Is there any debate on that first motion that Mr. Dewar has moved forward?

Mr. Obhrai.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As was already mentioned, we discussed the tenth report yesterday, so that is already out of there.

With regard to the next two motions, the government has a serious problem on the basis of the fact that the motion on CSR, the corporate--

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

No. We aren't on that motion. We're on the first motion.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

But that's the report he's talking about. It's part of that.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Oh, I'm sorry.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

CSR is basically under the jurisdiction of the Minister of International Trade, not the Minister of Foreign Affairs, so it would be appropriate that whatever this is go to the trade committee. The trade committee can handle that since it is not the responsibility of the Minister of Foreign Affairs. We suggest that Mr. Dewar contact his colleague in the trade committee and have this go on to the trade committee.

As far as the third report is concerned and why I opposed this, the government's position on this file has been very clearly stated. There are going to be no changes. The position is there.

The problem we are having with this, Mr. Chair, and why we are opposing it, is that it takes a lot of government resources to do that and we would rather carry on with a lot of what is more important, specifically some of the motions that I put forward, most likely on Sri Lanka. As you know, things are happening there.

It will take a lot of effort on the government's part, so for that reason the government feels it cannot support this motion. It uses up resources and basically has no value for this committee in reference to CSR and the report on Mr. Omar Khadr.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Obhrai.

Mr. Rae.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chairman, there are two things I want to say.

One, I would hope that as a matter of style and practice, the steering committee would be able to work hard on the agenda and give us a sense of direction. There'll be some trade-offs, and we all have our special interests and subjects. I mean, we could spend a lot of time debating motions that come before us, but we have to say, okay, how do we want to organize our schedule? What are the issues we want to deal with? How do we want to go forward? I would hope that as a matter of just working style, we'd be able to do that.

We made a decision last time that we'd do this broad study, that we'd begin to pull together the people we want to look at. There are a couple of issues that I've mentioned, and Mr. Obhrai has moved a motion on them--Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, areas of particular crisis where we need to be able to respond and to have, on an ongoing basis, sessions on.

I would just prefer that we do that. We have to understand that if we say we're going to consider this, then we're going to consider that, and then, by the way, we're going to consider this in addition, that kind of unfocuses us, that's all. I think we have to try to stay focused. Otherwise we can spend time debating motions.

As I've suggested to people, I'm happy if we can have a day where we talk about Sir Lanka, get a couple of witnesses in who can give us some information, and have an engaged discussion on that. That's worthwhile, and we can move on that basis.

I'm not quite sure, for example--speaking about both of Mr. Dewar's motions--when we would do this. Would it take time away from other stuff? How would we integrate it into the rest of what we're doing?

I really think these are the things that need to be traded off in the steering committee much more. In my view, that's what the steering committee should be doing.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I think sometimes in the steering committee we bring forward, or we try to. You know, where we really make the recommendations is when we should have a consensus. When the steering committee comes here, we're still going to pass it by the committee, but we should be pretty close to a consensus on some of this.

So yes, I would agree with much of that: we have to try to get clearer consensus at steering committee. I actually thought, at last steering committee, we did that fairly well.

Mr. Dewar.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I'll respond to Bob's point, and I guess to the parliamentary secretary's point as well.

The motion that's on the table right now is just follow-up from what we'd debated last time. These three items were ones that this committee had passed. In the case of CSR, we'd passed it here.

Mr. Obhrai, you will recall that. It was your amendment that I accepted to get it through, and I thank you for that.

It's the same as the Afghanistan report; by the time that got through, it never got beyond.... I think it was just tabled in the House and then we recessed.

So in the case of the CSR, that's the mop-up, if you will, Bob, on that.