Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 19th, 2009

[Stephen Hunt]

I guess if a complaint was brought and you could establish to the minister that workers were being harmed, made ill because of their work, or dying because of their work, you could at least bring forward a complaint to see if you could advance that to see if there was a standard that was acceptable somewhere.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

So, really, what you're saying--and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, we need to find some agreement here--it seems to me, is that you see Bill C-300 as a way for the Canadian government, armed with this bill as enacted, to be able to bring those standards to the Chilean or the Peruvian or the Ecuadorian governments and have those Canadian standards imposed on those countries.

[Stephen Hunt]

No. I think what we talk about is before the federal government supports the Canadian mining companies monetarily, we'd look at corporate social responsibility, regulations with respect to health and safety or environment when it affects communities that are in close proximity to a mine.

I'm not suggesting we'd impose Canadian law on those countries; it wouldn't work.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Your industry employs 350,000 people, and it has been suggested by EDC and by the Canada Pension Plan that the enactment of Bill C-300 would have a severe impact, as Mr. Beatty said this morning, on those 350,000 workers. Are you prepared to put them in jeopardy?

[Stephen Hunt]

Of course I am not prepared to put them in jeopardy, but I don't believe Mr. Beatty either. I think he was simply wrong in stating it would put workers in jeopardy. I wouldn't sit here and put workers in Canada or anywhere else in jeopardy. The whole reason for my being here is that I'm concerned about foreign workers who get substandard treatment from Canadian mining companies. That's a pretty good thing to do. I don't feel bad about that. I feel pretty good to sit in front of you on this committee and say I represent workers. I don't care what country they come from. I don't care what flag flies over them. If they are working for a Canadian company, then we ought to be able to export our best practices, and that includes protecting those workers, their communities, and their families. That makes sense to me—it's a good thing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Hunt.

Mr. Lunney.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

You are admitting in that comment that you're trying to get Canadian labour laws to apply extraterritorially, and we have a problem with that. We are working on building capacity in other countries, but trying to get those laws to apply in other nations is a problem. I think you'd recognize as much.

[Stephen Hunt]

I wish I could get them to apply the laws that protect workers in Canada. Then we wouldn't have some of the stories like Westray, Elliot Lake, and other horror stories.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

You have to admit that these situations are in the minority. We regulate very strictly in Canada, and most nations would like to have the kinds of regulations we have here.

[Stephen Hunt]

If they are enforced.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

I'd like to go on with our friends from KAIROS.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Make it quick, Mr. Lunney.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

On the round table, you said you are waiting for a response. We appreciate the church community's wanting to help people in other nations. But this goes back to our discussion about the extraterritorial application of our laws. We simply can't impose Canadian laws on other nations. They have their own sovereign issues. Many of the abuses that are described are actually actions of the governments themselves. It is the lack of governing capacity that we're trying to address. We are trying to find ways to address that in Canada.

You mentioned Professor John Ruggie and the United Nations PRI. We have the Equator Principles. We have a whole evolution of CSR principles over the last decade. I'm just wondering if you're not concerned that the punitive measures that would be found in Bill C-300, if it were applied the way it is written, might not be responsible for the kinds of problems we had with Talisman. Here we have a responsible Canadian company being removed, another country moving in with less regulation than we have here, and the people suffering more than they were before.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Lunney.

[Ian Thomson]

It is a legitimate concern that the committee members are raising about competitiveness. What impact is this going to have on Canadian companies versus their peers? Canada is a jurisdiction people seek out to raise mining capital worldwide, because we have some of the best geophysicists and mining analysts. People know that when you raise money here you have to do due diligence. The regulations on our stock exchange governing reserves and disclosure are some of the highest, and you can count on them.

If we did the same with our social responsibility, we wouldn't see capital flight. We've built up a reputation for being the best jurisdiction in the world for raising mining capital. If how we accounted for reserves was a voluntary standard, do you think we'd be in the position we're in? No. It is because they are mandatory. It is because they are backed up by government regulation. If we could do the same with social responsibility, we'd continue to attract the same levels of capital. However, we would also be addressing these other social and environmental risks that our extractive companies are facing every day, without a corrective framework within which to act.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Thomson.

Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'm waiting to be enraptured by Mr. Goldring on the Constitution, but I think I can wait. He's giving me more argument, so it is good.

If that's okay with the committee, I'll have seven minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Thanks to our witnesses. Sorry for the “inside baseball”.

As we look at this legislation, what some have claimed--we heard it just recently—is that somehow we're going to be imposing Canadian law upon other jurisdictions.

We had a legal brief submitted at committee that actually says that clearly it isn't. And I think we've heard from you on this.

I mean, one of the claims is that because we're putting a screen, if you will, on Canadian conduct overseas, there should be some link here. If you're going to get Canadian funds, or if you're going to be investing Canadian funds, you basically should have some accountability.

I'll go to KAIROS first, and then Mr. Hunt.

When you're abroad, you hear from communities that have concerns around Canadian companies and their conduct. What do you think this bill would do to change the discourse, if you will, between the people who are in those communities and the reputation of Canada as a country? How do you think this bill can help with that?

[Connie Sorio]

First of all, in a community where their human rights, environment, and livelihood are impacted, the first instance is to go to their local community and complain about it. But these complaints are not being redressed. The current economic framework of these countries is that their support is for multinationals who came to invest in their countries.

Basically, Bill C-300 would open up an avenue for communities to be able to come to the Canadian embassy and register a complaint, register a concern, hoping that the Canadian embassy in that country would look into it, would investigate, and would bring redress to these communities.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

What redress do they have for that currently?

[Connie Sorio]

Let's take the case of the Cordillera Peoples Alliance in the northern part of the Philippines. Olympus, a Canadian mining company that is doing exploratory activity there, is not following environmental standards. But in the Philippines, you cannot expect the government to enforce its own environmental standards.

Basically, then, the community would hope to come to the Canadian government, where Bill C-300 would provide them with that opportunity or space to--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Ms. Sorio, I have to interrupt you for one moment.

Procedurally, I have to point out to members that we have a vote coming up. To my understanding, it's a 30-minute bell, and the vote will be at 11:15.

According to our Standing Orders, I have to ask for the committee's unanimous support to continue. I would hope that we would get ample opportunity to get over to the vote.

Do we have unanimous support for that?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right.

Ms. Sorio, I'm sorry for interrupting you. Please go right back to where you were.