Evidence of meeting #43 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-300.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Grant Manuge  Director General, Trade Commissioner Service, Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Sabine Nölke  Director, United Nations, Human Rights and Economic Law Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
James Lambert  Director General, Latin America and Caribbean, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Catherine Duhamel  Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much. We've gone about a minute over there.

That pretty well sums it up.

I don't know whether this is the time to read this or not, but just to put it on the record, Marleau and Montpetit deals with private members' bills. It says: There is a constitutional requirement that bills proposing the expenditure of public funds must be accompanied by a royal recommendation, which can be obtained only by the government and introduced by a Minister. Since a Minister cannot propose items of Private Members’ Business, a private Member’s bill should therefore not contain provisions for the spending of funds.

Today I think we've been fairly clear. This is going to take an extra, as I think one witness said, millions; another said it would be the same as another human rights commission.

There is another way: if the recommendation comes, the Speaker...but I don't know whether that would make this a confidence measure. I imagine it would.

Anyway, thank you for your testimony here today. We appreciate hearing from our department.

We will suspend and invite our next guests to take their places.

While the department is still here, there was a question that Mr. Rae asked earlier dealing with process. Perhaps you would take a look at the blues and examine the question dealing with the set-up of the process. If you would make a written answer to that, we would surely appreciate it.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Welcome back. We'll call the meeting to order again.

In the second hour, we're continuing in our study of Bill C-300. We're very pleased to have, from Alternatives Canada, Catherine Duhamel, an international human rights lawyer.

Ms. Duhamel, I welcome you to our committee this morning and invite you to make your initial presentation. We hope that you will have the time as well to take some questions from our committee.

Welcome.

December 1st, 2009 / 9:50 a.m.

Catherine Duhamel Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, I am a lawyer. I have more than 16 years' experience in international cooperation, in institution building and in democratic development in Latin America and Africa. I have spent time in countries that have allowed Canadian mining projects and I have investigated a number of cases of human rights violations with the UN and the OAS. I have worked with the War Crimes Unit in Canada. I am currently working with the Clinique internationale de défense des droits humains at UQAM. Thank you for inviting me here today.

My presentation will focus on three points: first, the status quo is not a viable solution; second, Bill C-300 is an option that would strengthen corporate social responsibility; third, Canada needs a bill on civil responsibility for human rights violations committed overseas by our companies.

You cannot have a functioning global economy with a dysfunctional global legal system: there has to be somewhere, somehow, that people who feel that their rights have been trampled on can attempt redress...and if the complaints turn out to be unfounded, so be it....people with bona fide claims of abuse have no recourse or remedy, while companies who are falsely vilified for alleged complicity in human rights abuses can not effectively clear their names....it points to the need to have some forum in which this kind of complaint can be ventilated and resolved, and not [be] simply left as a dissatisfied local population squared off against a foreign company with no means of introducing a legal structure to look after the fall-out.

The status quo, meaning the lack of a forum at which parties can be heard, is not a viable solution. This is what Supreme Court Justice Binnie has just told us. It is not viable economically, socially, politically or legally, and this applies to all stakeholders.

Bill C-300 provides for an accessible, predictable and legitimate forum where the two parties can be heard. It is a domestic administrative process that has repercussions beyond our borders, but it is not Canada exercising extraterritorial jurisdiction. Bill C-300 means that decisions made by agents of Canada must comply with Canadian legislation and with Canada's international obligations. The decisions are made on Canadian soil; this therefore gives the federal government the authority to exercise its jurisdiction.

Canada's extraterritorial jurisdiction is exercised directly on a person or firm that has committed acts overseas when a connection with Canada exists. Under certain circumstances, Canada already exercises its extraterritorial jurisdiction on Canadian companies operating overseas. This includes criminal matters, under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act. Canada already conducts investigations in the field under that act and under others.

Canada is not the only country to monitor the activities of its mining companies. In fact, some states go much further. They monitor the activities of foreign mining companies. This is the case for Norway, the United States and France, to name but a few.

If we compare what this bill is proposing with what Norway has put in place since 2004, the Norwegian finance minister authorizes extraterritorial investigations into the activities of foreign mining companies. The minister's Council on Ethics uses public sources of information and conducts investigations in the field.

In Canada, neither the 2009 strategy nor the C-300 process allows us to go and conduct investigations overseas at the moment. It remains to be seen what the protocol and the budget will allow, once approved. Even with a budget, an investigation conducted by the CSR counsellor will have the same challenges and constraints as those foreseen by Bill C-300, such as the availability of Canadian resources for investigations, the permission to investigate in host countries, and so on. However, none of that seems to pose any problems for Norway.

As to the way in which complaints are dealt with, the rules of procedural fairness and natural justice apply to all administrative bodies established by a Canadian act. It is assumed that Bill C-300 complies with the Constitution and with the principle of procedural fairness. A recommendation from the counsellor that a company must comply with environmental and human rights standards would have the same force as a decision by the minister under bill C-300, because agents of the state, as representatives of Her Majesty, remain bound by Canadian law. So their decisions must comply.

An agent of the state could not continue to support and encourage a company that has to comply voluntarily. If the company is accused of complicity in torture, rape or war crimes committed in the host country, for example, the agent could also be accused of complicity and tried in Canada.

While we are discussing whether we should make voluntary standards mandatory for government agencies, the United States is discussing The Conflict Minerals Trade Act , a private bill that not only seeks to identify mining companies operating in conflict zones in the DRC, but also seeks to make a map available to the public, and to require communications technology companies, among others, who import those minerals to certify that the minerals used in their consumer products do not come from conflict zones.

So it must be said that, not only is Bill C-300 a tiny step for Canada internationally, but that the mechanism is also far from achieving the compliance that the United Nations recommends for Canada and for mining companies. In fact, the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has already recommended that Canada act to prevent natural resources companies in its jurisdiction from violating the human rights of aboriginal peoples overseas and to make them accountable for their actions.

Bill C-300 does not prevent Canadian companies from violating the standards outside Canada, it does not deal with the responsibility of those that do, and it provides no recourse or compensation for the victims. Should a Canadian act provide for all that? Yes; there is such an act in the United States. It allows complainants to obtain compensation, if need be, and it allows companies to re-establish their reputation. This is exactly what happened with Talisman Energy.

As the American act, the Alien Tort Claims Act, has no equivalent in Canada, provincial programs of civil responsibility apply, or tort law. There is a major legal obstacle: the judge has the discretion to determine whether the most appropriate court to hear the case is here in Canada or in the host state. So the judge can send the case to another country. This is the doctrine of forum non conveniens.

Sending cases back to the host country sometimes results in a denial of justice and a lack of compensation for the victims. This is exactly what happened in the Cambior case. That 1995 case dealt with 2.3 billion litres of liquid containing cyanide, heavy metals and other pollutants that had been spilled into two rivers in Guyana, one of which was the main source of water for the people who lived there. In 1998, a Canadian judge sent the case back to Guyanese courts and they dismissed all subsequent suits, leaving the victims with no recourse and no damages.

The Copper Mesa Mining case, which is currently before Canadian courts, is trying to get round this legal obstacle by contending that decisions made under Canadian jurisdiction, at the head office of a Canadian mining company, gave rise to human rights violations in Ecuador.

Some states are also trying to get around the doctrine. At the end of the 1990s, some countries in Central America passed what are called blocking statutes designed to discourage judges from sending cases back to their countries. In Europe, forum non conveniens is now limited in its application. National courts in member countries of the European Union cannot use the doctrine to dismiss complaints against companies headquartered in those countries.

We are now seeing Canadian companies being sued in the United States and Australia, sanctioned by the World Bank, Norway and France, and investigated in England. Perhaps, with the bill in the United States, we may soon see them overseen by various UN committees, or subject to UN investigations or restrictions or prohibitions in host countries. Canadian mining companies will become more and more watched over, controlled and judged by third party states or international organizations, thereby filling the legal and administrative void in Canada.

In conclusion, at this time when everything is equitable, or eco-, or bio-, when buildings are green, when consumption is ethical, when responsibility is social and when development is sustainable and certified, industries like textiles and agri-food have, both in the North and in the South, set a new course towards greater transparency and greater compliance with human rights. And it has brought them handsome profits.

Are we in Canada going to set that course too and start the journey? Are we going to continue to have others make us do so?

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Ms. Duhamel.

Mr. Rae, you have five minutes.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Ms. Duhamel, were you here when the people from the department made their presentation? Would you like to comment on that presentation?

10 a.m.

Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada

Catherine Duhamel

I have worked in the field. As I told you, I worked in an embassy myself and I have dealt with many embassies in a number of countries. Yes, I can confirm that information is gathered through embassies.

They are already conducting investigations, basically because it is the job of the political section and the trade section to keep abreast of what Canadian citizens and companies are doing so they can interact with the government and develop markets for Canada in those countries. So these investigations are done in the field. CIDA is also involved in the process, in that its projects are also part of an environment in which Canadian officials gather information.

I would like to bring up one very important point. If a Canadian official overseas breaks a local law, he is liable to be charged, not only in the country, but also in Canada. It is an offence under the Criminal Code. So, in the event of support, advice and encouragement to companies in the field, whether before or after the fact, a federal employee may be accountable.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

As Mr. Abbott said to the other witnesses, I do not want to put words in your mouth. I gather from your presentation that you are essentially emphasizing that this idea of corporate social responsibility is everywhere: in international law, in Norwegian law, in French and English law. There is a whole international movement and Canada cannot stand in its way. Bill C-300 gives Canada the ability to be part of this international movement.

Is that what you are saying? Is that the crux of it?

10:05 a.m.

Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada

Catherine Duhamel

Exactly.

It is important to understand that other states are defining it for Canada because of our prevailing situation. A fundamental principle of international law is that we are all equal under the law. This principle is enshrined in the universal declaration, and elsewhere. It is in our Constitution, in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

When a company owes money to a bank and does not pay, there are consequences, and the bank will no longer continue to invest in the company or lend it money. For mining companies, that law does not exist. It is all very well for us to ask them all to be equal under the law, but sometimes, in Canada, that law does not exist and, overseas, it is not applied.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Did you hear the government's thinking on the legal process that they would have to set up in order to implement Bill C-300? Do you agree that they would have to find an internal system in the department which would provide people with the means to seek justice? Do you agree with that statement?

10:05 a.m.

Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada

Catherine Duhamel

You have to understand the point that our colleagues from Foreign Affairs raised. The counsellor will also need the investigators, lawyers, and other resources that Mr. Manuge mentioned. The counsellor will also be faced with the same challenges and constraints that were mentioned just now.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

So the challenge will be the same. Anyone can complain to the counsellor, right?

10:05 a.m.

Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada

Catherine Duhamel

I am not sure I understood your question.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

They said...

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Very quickly, Mr. Rae.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

They said that the complaints could come from anywhere under Bill C-300. That also applies to complaints to the counsellor.

10:05 a.m.

Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada

Catherine Duhamel

Exactly. The problem with the counsellor is that she can just set them aside without having to justify doing so.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Right.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Madame Deschamps.

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Good morning, Ms. Duhamel.

Bill C-300 has been debated by people who have come to testify before us as individuals, particularly members of civil society and several NGOs. Even people from mining companies took part in the round tables. There has been a wide consensus. According to the reports from the round tables, and also according to you, Bill C-300 is just a small step.

The government is afraid that, because of the bill, industries will stop spending and that we will be swept away in an avalanche of baseless complaints. From your experience and your work in the field, can you tell me if the small step that Bill C-300 takes will have the tragic consequences that we are led to believe will occur?

10:10 a.m.

Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada

Catherine Duhamel

I would like to answer that question with this one: where are the companies going to go? To the United States or Australia, where they can be sued? To China? To England? The expertise and the financial wherewithal are here, in Canada. The mining capital of the world is Toronto. The exploration capital of the world is Vancouver. That is not going to change overnight. It took a number of years to build and is going to remain.

10:10 a.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Since most companies have nothing to be ashamed of, they have no reason to leave.

10:10 a.m.

Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada

Catherine Duhamel

Correct, and that brings up another question.

The compliance required by the government under its 2009 strategy is the same as the compliance required in Bill C-300. The compliance will be no greater under Bill C-300 than it is at the moment. The compliance is the same in both cases. The only difference is that it is mandatory. Voluntary standards have been made into mandatory standards.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Very quickly, Madame Lalonde.

10:10 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Last week, companies represented by eminent lawyers came to make their case. Those representatives said a number of times that, under Bill C-300, given that the complaint process goes through the department, companies would not be adequately judged and had no other way to be heard.

What do you think about that?

10:10 a.m.

Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada

Catherine Duhamel

Professor John Ruggie, the United Nations' special representative, has issued criteria to determine whether a mechanism is credible and effective. It must be accessible, predictable, equitable and legitimate.

The government's mechanism is not entirely accessible. Nor is it predictable. There is no certainty that there has been an investigation. Recommendations, if there are any, cannot be applied. In addition, since one of the two parties can never be heard, can it really be said to be equitable? The result is anything but predictable. So is it legitimate? Because of all this, there are serious doubts about the credibility and the effectiveness of the process.