Evidence of meeting #43 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-300.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Grant Manuge  Director General, Trade Commissioner Service, Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Sabine Nölke  Director, United Nations, Human Rights and Economic Law Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
James Lambert  Director General, Latin America and Caribbean, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Catherine Duhamel  Lawyer, International Human Rights Law, Alternatives Canada

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, colleagues.

This is meeting 43 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, Tuesday, December 1, 2009. Our orders of the day include a return to our committee's study of Bill C-300, An Act respecting Corporate Accountability for the Activities of Mining, Oil or Gas in Developing Countries.

On our first panel today we have, from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, Grant Manuge, the director general of the trade commissioner service, operations; Mr. James Lambert, the director general for Latin America and the Caribbean; Sabine Nölke, director of the United Nations human rights and economic law division; and Ms. Sara Wilshaw, the director of trade commissioner service support.

We welcome you to our committee this morning. I'll invite you to make your opening statements, and then we'll proceed into the first and second round of questioning.

I want to remind the members of our committee today that we are going to try to adjourn this by 10:15 to 10:30, somewhere in there, and move into steering committee. We'll really be on the time clock today in terms of the seven-minute rounds for questions and answers.

Mr. Manuge.

9 a.m.

Grant Manuge Director General, Trade Commissioner Service, Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade-- “DFAIT”, as we refer to it--to return to this committee.

Today we would like to build upon previous testimony made by this department and comment on the potential implications of implementing Bill C-300, the challenges of the quasi-judicial process it would create, and the CSR-related activities in which DFAIT is currently engaged as part of our mandate when it comes to fostering the expansion of Canada's international trade and commerce and coordinating Canada's international economic relations.

Officials at the department have been following closely the committee's study of Bill C-300 and have carefully reviewed your comments and questions, as well as the testimony provided by the many witnesses and stakeholders who have appeared since the department last appeared in June.

During that appearance, officials spoke of the new corporate social responsibility strategy tabled by the government in March, the work of the national contact point and the network of foreign service officers around the world. It was also noted during that appearance that departmental officials had some concerns with the proposed implementation of this bill. That appearance was followed with a written submission outlining these concerns and questions.

Since that time, many issues have been raised by the various stakeholders. You have heard from the industry, civil society organizations, Export Development Canada, the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board and some of our partner departments.

Rather than focusing on areas that have already been substantively addressed by others, DFAIT would like to use its time today to raise a number of issues that would have considerable impact on this department and on its work. These issues include the use and operation of the Special Economic Measures Act; the question of applying international human rights standards to non-state actors; the way in which DFAIT provides CSR support to Canadian companies, including those in the mining, oil and gas sector; and the foreign policy implications of the bill.

To highlight some of these issues, it might be useful to undertake a close examination of the implications for this department of setting up and conducting an examination process as it is set out in the bill.

As the department that would ultimately be responsible for implementing and applying many of the provisions of this legislation, we needed to look carefully at what would be asked of us should this legislation pass. In so doing, we felt it was important to carefully examine the provisions of the legislation as it currently stands and to assess the various implications, some of which I will mention here.

Bill C-300 asks the ministers of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade to draft a set of what appear to be mandatory regulations using a number of internationally recognized, voluntary guidelines and one policy that is internal to the International Finance Corporation. This is challenging, because these instruments are currently drafted as guidelines, and not regulations, so that they remain flexible enough to embrace the wide range of complex circumstances and conditions under which firms from Canada and other countries operate in countries around the world.

The bill also asks the ministers to incorporate human rights standards and “any other standard consistent with international human rights standards”. In this regard, Dr. John Ruggie, special representative of the UN Secretary-General on the issue of human rights and transnational corporations and other business enterprises, noted in his report of April 22, 2009, that “human rights instruments were written by States, for States. Their meaning for businesses has not always been understood clearly by human rights experts....” It would be difficult to determine which international human rights standards to apply and how those standards should apply to non-state actors prior to the completion of the work of Dr. Ruggie.

This point also serves to highlight the fact that Bill C-300 would require DFAIT to build or acquire the capacity to investigate and adjudicate claims of human rights abuse and environmental degradation. In addition, ministers would need to take into account not only the legal risk of making a determination, which could be subject to judicial review, but also potential impacts such a determination might have on local communities, host governments, Canadian companies, civil society organizations, and other stakeholders.

As noted in our earlier submission, the link between the actions of a Canadian extractive company and grave breaches of human rights by states is unclear and does not seem to be consistent with the purpose of enhancing corporate social responsibility abroad.

Bill C-300 requires the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade to set up a quasi-judicial process. That process would need to meet all the requirements of due process, procedural fairness, and natural justice. Foreign Affairs and International Trade currently does not have the ability to function as a quasi-judicial body. There is no provision within the DFAIT Act to house such a mechanism.

In order to set up a process to accept or reject complaints, conduct examinations, and make decisions based upon those examinations, a carefully drafted framework would be required, firmly respecting the principles of natural justice. This extensive regulatory framework would be required to ensure that rights are being protected.

The issues outlined above also raise questions as to whether or not DFAIT officials have the right skills or will have sufficient resources available to train or recruit individuals with the appropriate professional competencies to do this work.

It may be helpful to review the current practice of the department when DFAIT officials are presented with allegations of wrongdoing by a Canadian company abroad. When the department learns of such allegations, we take these very seriously and try to play a constructive and helpful role. Our heads of missions and foreign service officers in Canada and abroad consult and work closely with companies and the affected communities, and with governments, indigenous peoples, and civil society organizations to facilitate an open and informed dialogue among all parties.

In the event that the territory in which the alleged activity took place is not a signatory to the OECD guidelines for multinational enterprises and does not have their own national contact point, or NCP, we would offer the services of Canada's NCP to the affected individuals, communities or their representatives.

The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade currently chairs the interdepartmental committee that is Canada's national contact point (NCP) for the OECD guidelines. These guidelines are a key element of Canada's CSR approach.

The NCP promotes the guidelines, handles inquiries, and can foster a constructive dialogue between stakeholders when issues arise. If the allegations fall outside the scope of the OECD guidelines, the department could offer the services of the newly appointed Extractive Sector CSR Counsellor to the affected communities for issues that fall within her mandate.

The department's approach to engaging with stakeholders in the event of such allegations is one that reflects the principles that guide Canada's foreign relations and the observance of Canada's commitments under international agreements and obligations, including respect for the sovereignty of states.

It is an approach that is consistent with the way states in general work with one another when issues such as these are raised. It also demonstrates a commitment not only to help companies perform better and act in a socially responsible manner but also to work with host governments and local communities to enhance their ability to manage natural resources and benefit from the development opportunity afforded to them by such endowments.

When amending the DFAIT Act to put constraints on the kind of support officials are able to provide to Canadian companies in certain circumstances, it might be useful to note what some of those activities are. It will be challenging to draw a distinction between the activities of DFAIT officials that promote and support Canadian companies, and would have to be withdrawn in the case of a negative determination by the ministers, and activities that could be considered improving overall CSR performance.

These activities include hosting sustainable development and CSR conferences, seminars, and workshops; assisting Canadian delegations of indigenous peoples to meet with groups of indigenous peoples in other countries to talk about CSR and natural resource development; visiting mining sites and speaking with stakeholders; providing information about Canadian policies and programs to foreign governments; assisting in bringing foreign delegations to trade shows, such as GLOBE and PDAC, to meet with Canadian companies and learn about new technologies and approaches to natural resource development; advising companies with respect to the local cultural, political, and social environments and encouraging them to develop CSR best practices; participating in dialogues with civil society organizations and other stakeholders to better understand the range of issues and concerns and to adapt our policies and practices accordingly; sharing advice and information with partners across government and working together to create a whole-of-government approach to promoting CSR; actively supporting the creation of the CSR centre of excellence; and engaging on CSR at the bilateral and multilateral levels in a vast array of fora and through a wide range of instruments.

In summary, the experience of this department has demonstrated the value of seeking to facilitate dialogue to identify shared objectives among multiple stakeholders and build a consensus about how they can be most effectively realized. This requires flexibility, creativity, balance, and readiness to adapt approaches to specific circumstances, particularly in light of the highly complex political and economic situations that exist in many developing countries. This is particularly true if the goal is not only to promote respect for human rights but also to work toward remedy where the potential exists for behaviours inconsistent with the proposed guidelines.

Insofar as the analysis undertaken of the potential impact of Bill C-300 on DFAIT, it could restrict our ability, in areas where we most need to engage, to influence a positive outcome and ultimately limit the ability of this department to make positive contributions in the area of corporate social responsibility.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Manuge.

We'll move to the first round of questioning.

Monsieur Patry.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you very much.

I thank our witnesses very much. Welcome once again.

Mr. Manuge, in your presentation this morning, you mentioned currently drafted guidelines. You told us, and I quote:

Bill C-300 asks the ministers of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade to draft a set of what appear to be mandatory regulations using a number of internationally recognized voluntary guidelines and one policy that is internal to the International Finance Corporation.

You also say:

... Bill C-300 would require [you] to build or acquire the capacity to investigate and adjudicate claims of human rights abuse and environmental degradation.

Is it reasonable to assume that the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade could effectively manage the complaints mechanism provided for in this bill?

9:10 a.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service, Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Grant Manuge

Thank you for the question.

During the course of the past months, after this department appeared before the committee in June, following our written submission after the appearance in June and in the lead-up to our appearance today, we felt that as the department that would ultimately be responsible for implementing a large part of the provisions of the bill, we should in good faith assess very carefully what the provisions of the bill would mean in terms of implementing for our department.

In this regard, the comments that I provided in the opening statement, and the ones noted in our written submission subsequent to our last appearance, itemized in some detail our concerns with the process of transforming what are currently drafted as guidelines into what would appear to be regulations that would require compliance on the part of Canadian companies abroad. At the same time, we wanted to look at how we would actually implement the process of examination that would be required.

It would appear to us that this would require the creation of a unit within our department that would focus on accepting complaints that would be submitted, on assessing them, on reviewing them, on establishing a process to be followed, and on providing related legal services.

This would require certain human resources, financial resources, that we believe could potentially be very significant.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

In your testimony, you also mentioned a quasi-judicial process. You said the following:

The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade does not have the ability to function as a quasi-judicial body. There is no provision within the DFAIT Act to house such a mechanism. To set up a process to accept or reject complaints, conduct examinations and make decisions based upon those examinations, a carefully crafted framework would be required, firmly respecting the principles of natural justice.

To whom do you think the responsibility for setting up that framework should be entrusted in order to move this bill forward?

9:15 a.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service, Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Grant Manuge

Perhaps I could ask my colleague from the legal division to address this question, given the legal implications.

December 1st, 2009 / 9:15 a.m.

Sabine Nölke Director, United Nations, Human Rights and Economic Law Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Thank you very much.

Since your question is legal in nature, I would like to answer in English.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

That is no problem. I speak in French because that's my mother tongue.

9:15 a.m.

Director, United Nations, Human Rights and Economic Law Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Sabine Nölke

Thank you.

We are not, I believe, as officials, in the position to suggest alternative mechanisms to the ones proposed in the bill, but we can certainly note that the framework that is currently provided in the bill would very likely not satisfy the administrative law requirements that would be necessary in order to establish a process that leads to a potentially prejudicial decision, which would then ultimately be subject to judicial review if it adversely affects a company.

The mechanism itself would require, clearly, investigators. It would require lawyers who provide legal advice to the commission. It would require the set-up of a whole new procedural framework that is not currently in existence within DFAIT and is not foreseen in the DFAIT Act.

So the minister would have to be given extensive new powers that he currently does not have. In our view, the legislation as drafted would not necessarily provide a sufficiently clear framework for that to happen.

Thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Rae.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

Thank you for this presentation.

Following on the comments of Ms. Nölke, the counsellor is housed in the international trade department. Is that where she is? Where is she operating out of?

9:15 a.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service, Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Grant Manuge

The counsellor will be housed in an office, which we are identifying currently, in Toronto. We are seeking space within a government office building in Toronto.

This was a decision that was taken on the basis of proximity to key stakeholders, civil society organizations, and head offices of the extractive industry.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

But I'm just saying that it wasn't beyond the imagination of government to devise a.... I mean, you have to think through a mechanism. There's no legislation providing for the counsellor, and you're simply providing a mechanism.

I agree with Ms. Nölke's conclusion that a process would have to be created.

I think, Mr. Manuge, you referred to this in your comments, that there has to be some kind of a process created that would allow the minister to make a determination as to whether or not guidelines have been followed.

Persuade me, I guess, that somehow this is outside the jurisdiction of the minister's authority. If the minister is granted this authority by the bill, the minister is required to make a determination. The minister then has to create a process that allows that determination to be made and the process has to be seen to be fair. That's completely understood.

It will also require staff to advise the minister. Obviously the minister isn't going to make up the decision on the basis of what he or she reads in the newspaper.

My question is what's wrong with that? Why would you think that wouldn't be anticipated by virtue of the proposal?

Of course it's anticipated that this is work that will have to be done. Whether it's additional or not is up to the minister to decide how resources are allocated. But I don't think it's incompatible with the mandate of the minister.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I think we're probably going to have to ask for a written submission, or maybe you can work it into a couple of other questions. We're a minute and a little over already on that round.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I apologize.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

That's all right.

Madame Lalonde.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Could you tell us what you currently do when you are informed that a given company is committing acts that are considered deplorable in terms of human rights and the environment?

9:20 a.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service, Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Grant Manuge

We take it very seriously. We examine every complaint that is brought to our attention, whether directly or through a report in the media. Clearly, there are repercussions on our relationship with the country in which the company in question is carrying out its activities.

With your permission, I will continue in English.

What we normally do is that officials--both at headquarters and in our office abroad, where the company activities may be located, as well as our regional offices, should that be appropriate--will consult with the key parties who would be able to provide us with additional information. Obviously we have to undertake a process of due diligence to better understand why the complaint has been brought forward. We seek to draw information from as many of the parties involved as possible, including the company, civil society organizations, local government, indigenous communities should they be affected--all the possible parties who could help us understand whether there is a foundation to the complaint.

In terms of what we seek to do in those situations, we're very conscious of the diplomatic and legal restrictions with which our presence is governed abroad. We have to assess the implications that the diplomatic and legal restrictions could have on our ability to act. That being said, our approach is to offer our good offices, to open a dialogue among interested parties with a view to seeking a constructive and results-oriented remedy should there be a well-founded concern about misbehaviour or improper behaviour on the part of the company.

Should the issue that has been brought forward prove to be vexatious or in bad faith, then obviously it is important to clarify that at a very early date because of the potentially very negative impact that could have on the reputation of not only Canada but also the company in question.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Manuge.

Madame Lalonde.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

In the absence of any other framework, you already make sure that you identify the wrongdoing to the extent that you can and you consult a number of people about it. You already have a mechanism that allows you to establish responsibility.

What else would you have to add in order for you to be able to comply with Bill C-300?

9:20 a.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service, Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Grant Manuge

Thank you.

To clarify my answer, we do not have the authority to undertake formal investigations abroad. We do not have the authority to establish who is at fault in situations like this. When I mentioned that we lend our offices to open dialogue with a view to seeking results-oriented, constructive solutions, that's exactly what we do. We seek to help the various players reach a consensus on a way forward.

Our intention in that regard is obviously to assist all of the players to reach an outcome that will help provide positive results.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Continuing along the same lines as Ms. Lalonde, I would like to know how the new CSR Counsellor's work is going to blend in with what you are already doing.

9:25 a.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service, Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Grant Manuge

Thank you.

The mandate of the CSR counsellor for extractive industries as set out in the order in council is, we believe, complementary to the work currently being done by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade both here and abroad.

Her mandate is twofold. On the one hand, it's to review any issues that are brought to her attention regarding the behaviour of Canadian companies abroad, to look at those very carefully and to review them through a process that she is currently setting up, to engage in an informal examination of the issue, to undertake fact-finding, informal mediation, and to provide access to formal mediation, should that be appropriate. In addition, she will be reporting publicly on that at the appropriate stage in the review process.

The mandate that she will be implementing we believe will be an essential part of the overall strategy that was announced in March. It builds on the additional work that has been undertaken by the national contact point for OECD multinational enterprises, which, as I mentioned in the opening statement, is an interdepartmental committee chaired by this department. The order in council that sets out the CSR counsellor's mandate specifically addresses how the two mechanisms should work together.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Is the counsellor going to be able to conduct investigations overseas?