Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 26th, 2010

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you very much.

I appreciate your being here.

It is a challenging situation in Sudan. I'm trying to get my head around the challenges of the referendum, and I'm wondering if one of you could help me. What is the population of southern Sudan and of Sudan in general?

Perhaps Mr. Malok could help me with that.

[Joseph Malok]

The census of 2008 shrank the population of southern Sudan to 8.2 million, which was rejected by the SPLM and the Government of Southern Sudan. Nobody agreed with that number.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

What's the population of the whole country of Sudan as it currently exists, or at least technically exists? What's the population of the north?

[Joseph Malok]

According to the UN head count, southern Sudan is around 16 million.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

What about the north?

[Joseph Malok]

The north is really unpredictable. You never know what the real number is, but they're saying around 21 million or 22 million.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

So you're trying to register people, and the registration process is under way now. Can you give me an idea of how many people have been registered as voters in the south at the present time?

[Joseph Malok]

The registration has not started yet. It will start November 14.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

I think there are some real logistical challenges in getting so many people registered and educated and so on.

I wanted to ask about the IDPs, because we have a lot of people there. I understand we were expecting quite a movement of people who had been displaced coming back to southern Sudan to participate in registration and the vote. Do we have any idea how that is happening, or isn't happening, or where we're at with that?

[Joseph Malok]

Recently the Government of Southern Sudan, through the Minister of Humanitarian Affairs, made a call to the international community to help in transporting IDPs in Khartoum back to southern Sudan. That is under way. That just started today, to move them to southern Sudan using buses, trains, and ships to go to areas like Upper Nile and Equatoria.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

I have questions on establishing citizenship, because you have also some nomadic people who aren't quite sure where they belong.

I heard a remark earlier, Mr. Malok, that the Government of Sudan's position is that the referendum could go ahead even if the borders were not finally determined. How are you dealing with the situation of citizenship in order to have some idea...? Is the number that I have correct? Do you need 50% plus one of the registered voters in order to have a successful referendum? Do I understand that correctly?

[Joseph Malok]

We need a 60% turnout of voters registered. Then, if 50% plus one do vote for one of the options, that result will be recognized.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

So you need 60% participation, and 50% plus one of those, to be considered successful.

[Joseph Malok]

Yes.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Wow.

In terms of the security situation, is there a role for the UNMIS forces or UNAMID, or the UN forces that are there in trying to maintain some...? Have our UN forces been asked to participate in security, particularly in border areas?

[Joseph Malok]

There is a concern because the NCP is building up the military on the borders between the north and the south, especially in the area that has the oil and other interests that borders between the south and the north. Last month, during the visit of the Security Council to Juba, the President of the Government of Southern Sudan made an appeal officially to the Security Council to deploy forces between the borders of the north and the south.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

But the Government of Sudan said no to that.

[Joseph Malok]

Of course, yes, they always say no. They always say no for anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay, we're going to end it there.

We're going to move back over to Mr. Dewar to finish this round and then we'll get started with another round.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our guests.

I want to start off with just a question on Abyei, and the talks in Addis. As people will know, former President Mbeki is the one who is overseeing that, and as recently as yesterday the talks were suspended.

I'm concerned because you have on the one hand the north saying, we'll abide by the referendum calendar, but I think most would argue that with Abyei still sitting there unresolved and with these talks as recently as yesterday suspended, that there clearly needs to be more pressure put on to get those talks going.

I'd ask Mr. Malok and maybe others if you see that as a role for Canada to play, to support Mr. Mbeki and others to get the two parties to get going on these talks. My information as of yesterday is that they were supposed to start tomorrow. They're suspended indefinitely. Is that what you're hearing?

Secondly, is there a role for Canada to play to get the parties back together?

[Joseph Malok]

Of course, Canada has so much to offer in this situation because of the role of Canada--respect and leadership--between the north and the south. Canada has no personal ambitions to pursue either in the north or in the south. All they want is to make sure peace is maintained in Sudan as a country. Also, they can actually put more pressure on both parties, NCP and SPLM, to negotiate the outstanding issues faithfully.

Canada also, at one point, went through a referendum in Quebec. They can also share that experience with the people of Sudan to see how this thing can work.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I would appreciate that as something that we could look at as perhaps a recommendation, because what we're hoping to do is to recommend to government from this committee some things that would be supportive.

I guess Mr. Obhrai might make a diary entry tonight because I am about to laud him and his government for the work they did on the action plan for Resolution 1325. There was a motion by the NDP to study this--more than two years or something, and last year--and lo and behold I saw the action plan, and I think it's great.

So the opportunity is upon us, and I think our guests mentioned that there is an opportunity for Canada to actually put the action plan into place. I too would encourage those who are on this committee that it's a must-read.

I would like to know, I guess from Mr. Lewis or Mr. Davis, is there a list of women's groups that can be specifically identified and involved if the government were to take Resolution 1325 as a lens to actually support what's happening on the ground in Sudan? If you could reference that now or perhaps provide that to the committee, I think it would be enormously helpful.

Do you have some examples of some of the groups you work with that could actually take what the government's put forward as an action plan for Resolution 1325 and realize it on the ground?

[John Lewis]

I can definitely send along the names of the organizations we're working with. It's part of our initiative on Women of Courage to canvass the needs of women's organizations operating inside zones of conflict, so Sudan and Congo are two of our areas of concern. We're working with three or four different women's organizations inside Sudan. I can certainly send along the names of those organizations. I don't have them on the tip of my tongue.

There is also a kind of women's department of the national council of churches in Sudan, the Sudan Council of Churches, which is the direct KAIROS partner that we work very closely with.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That would be helpful if you could pass them on to the committee, so that it can be realized in our recommendations.

We've seen a lot of activity in terms of world leaders going to Sudan. We had the president of Russia. We've had Senator John Kerry recently visit. Would it not be helpful if we had some high-profile Canadian representatives, be it the minister or ideally even the Prime Minister, go to the region to support the referendum, support the process, and to put our muscle behind what really is crucial? I think Canadians and most people get it now that if the referendum doesn't go well, we will see a humanitarian disaster in the region akin to the nineties and perhaps worse, in the region, in terms of the spillover effect.

I'm just wondering if there is something else that Canada should be doing in terms of making its presence known as well as its concern known. Should it include a high-profile visit by our Minister of Foreign Affairs or someone else?

[Joseph Malok]

Thank you for that suggestion. I think in 2008 the former foreign affairs minister, Mr. Bernier, and the Honourable Deepak visited Sudan, including Juba, and that visit had a very positive impact.

I believe, at this particular time, if Canada can actually visit Sudan again at a high level of representation, that would be something that the people of Sudan could work around.