Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 28th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I want to welcome everyone to meeting number 31 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today our orders of the day are the effectiveness and viability of public service partnerships between nations.

We will look at this over the next couple of meetings. We're going to start off with Madam Barrados today to talk a little bit about what I think is a unique opportunity for Canada: trying to help other countries build capacity around the world.

I'm not going to steal any of your presentation. I'm going to let you just go ahead and take your time. Then, as we do, we'll go around the room and ask some questions back and forth.

Welcome. Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to be here. I'll turn the floor over to you.

[Maria Barrados, President, Public Service Commission of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and honorable members.

I am delighted to be here today to talk about public service partnerships between nations, with a particular focus on the work of my organization, the Public Service Commission of Canada.

We are an independent agency reporting to Parliament, mandated to safeguard the integrity of the public service staffing system and non-partisanship of the public service. We have been in existence for over 100 years and are proud of our contribution to building a merit-based, non-partisan federal public service. The PSC reports annually to Parliament on its activities and results. Its 2009-2010 Annual Report was tabled in Parliament on October 5th.

While the PSC's mandate is mostly domestic, over the years, it has been approached by a number of countries to share its expertise and experience. As David Holdsworth wrote in his article entitled Sharing the Merit Principle: The Public Service Commission of Canada Abroad:

One of the lesser known stories of Canadian public administration during the past two decades is the role the Canadian model has played in contributing to human resource management reforms in other parts of the world. While a professional, non-partisan and merit-based public service is often taken for granted within our own borders, other countries looking to reform their public service see ours as a reference point and Canada as a source of best practices.

In this age of an increasingly competitive global economy, evidence concerning the value of a competent public service is persuasive. Studies by the World Bank have found that there is a strong correlation between a country's competitiveness and prosperity, and the quality of its public sector. This correlation holds whether the country is developing or developed; whether it is located in Asia, or Europe, or elsewhere in the Western world.

Canada's public service is known around the world for its professionalism, competency, and honesty. This reputation has brought delegations from other nations seeking information and assistance from departments and agencies. Many have come to the PSC, and we have worked more closely with some in the area of human resource management.

Our experience in South Africa is an example of the wider network approach. The PSC was part of the South Africa-Canada program on governance. The Canadian model served as a significant reference point. In fact, the new 1996 South Africa constitution enshrined an independent public service commission accountable to the National Assembly and a set of values and principles that significantly echo those of the Canadian public service.

The collaborative approach also applies to our involvement in Ukraine. A longstanding CIDA-funded project for public sector reform in Ukraine exists, and it is managed by the Canadian Bureau for International Education. The PSC has provided expertise to the project within the limits of its resources and capacity.

We have also signed memoranda of understanding with the support of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. The first was signed in 1991 with China's Ministry of Personnel, and it dealt largely with exchanges of knowledge. It was designed as a loose framework agreement, with annual work plans within which China could draw upon Canadian expertise according to its needs. The PSC was the coordinating organization on the Canadian side. A number of delegations visited China to observe their system first-hand and make presentations on selected aspects of the Canadian system. The initial MOU was renewed on several occasions.

In November 2007, the PSC signed a new MOU with the Central Organization Department of the Communist Party, the goal of which is to pursue and enhance exchanges and cooperation in the fields of senior public service management, human resources management, and public administration. This MOU set the stage for the first Canada-China symposium on personnel appraisal and assessment in the public sector, which took place in Beijing in March 2009.

The symposium was very productive. The face-to-face dialogue allowed the experts to share their knowledge and experience, and they were able to establish a rapport that bodes well for the second symposium we will be organizing here in Canada next year. I believe that this success will certainly help us move forward with other initiatives under the MOU. Our work with China is based on increasing our understanding and exchanges for mutual benefit among senior officials.

This brings me to our recent involvement with Mongolia. On September 28, the PSC was pleased to sign a memorandum of understanding with the Civil Service Council of Mongolia to share information and expertise with them. They see Canada's human resource management practices as the model for their reforms. The MOU is supported by the prime ministers of both countries, and there is a great deal of interest in the steps taken by the Government of Mongolia to put in place a professional and non-partisan public service, which is considered to be an essential element in developing a stable regulatory environment and investment climate.

The PSC is looking forward to working with our partners in Mongolia, and we will be drawing on the expertise of our colleagues across the Government of Canada to implement the MOU. I should mention that two other MOUs were signed with Mongolia, involving Agriculture Canada and the Canadian Standards Council.

The PSC is also working on an MOU with the Union Public Service Commission of India.

The PSC is proud of the contribution it has made and is continuing to make in its partner countries. These partnerships have been beneficial to both sides, and we are seeing some concrete results on the longer-standing ones. A longer-term approach is critical.

Our work at the PSC has always been supported in some way by government, but our work has been largely ad hoc. As well, the amount of time and effort that can be directed to these projects, both at the PSC and across the public service, is limited since very few special resources are dedicated to these projects. The demand for our expertise and assistance is greater than the resources available.

I think we can do better. I believe that government officials abroad can identify where the Canadian contribution is most wanted and needed, and that would support other Canadian initiatives. For example, the strong interest in Mongolia for Canadian expertise in support of their administrative reforms would provide a more investment-supportive environment.

I also believe there may be an opportunity for recently retired individuals from the public sector, including parliamentarians and public servants, who want to be involved in these projects. A resource of seasoned practitioners would be a considerable asset. Their careers have encompassed periods of extensive change in many areas of the public sector, and their experience could be especially effective for countries seeking to professionalize their public service. Involving these individuals would help maintain continuity, which can be a vital aspect of building partnerships--for example, I do not think our success with the China MOU would have been possible without the continuing involvement of the former PSC executive director, who was instrumental in setting up the original MOU.

Mr. Chairman, we need to bring these significant resources together through some effective networks. With the use of volunteers and a small amount of seed or start-up money, much can be accomplished. Seed money would be used to initiate planning on projects or programs and to obtain further support. The work in Mongolia, for example, could proceed in this way.

Thank you for inviting me to speak to you today. I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have at this time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to start with Dr. Patry.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I will be sharing my time with Mr. Rae.

Ms. Barrados, please feel free to answer my questions in English.

I would like to know if the Parliamentary Officers' Study Program, that allows some individuals to visit Canada, comes under the PSC program or falls under some other program.

[Maria Barrados]

I would like to know a little bit more about this visit program. What program is this exactly?

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

It is the Parliamentary Officers' Study Program. There are senior level officials who come here regularly. Recently, some three weeks to a month ago, there was a group of African officials, and I participated in the program for an hour. They spend around seven to ten days here and visit all the departments in order to see how things are done in Canada.

Is that part of your program, that of the PSC, or is it another government program that is involved?

[Maria Barrados]

I believe there are a great many programs, and they are often ad hoc. We have a lot of people from different countries who come to visit. However, we have not hosted any visits recently.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

We see that you have been involved with Mongolia and also with China. Is it you, the PSC, that offers your services, or do you wait for a country to ask you for assistance? How does this work?

[Maria Barrados]

That is a very good question.

In the case of China, there was a request from that country dating back 20 years. The relationship continued over time. Obviously, in order for the relationship to continue, there must be a request on one side, but, on the other, there must also be government support, and there must be an agency that is prepared to respond.

In the case of Mongolia, it was the same situation. There was a request from Mongolia, followed by an agreement signed by the two organizations, with the support of the two prime ministers.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

In what other countries have you become involved? You have had a presence for several years. I know that there is China and there is Mongolia. You also talked about the Ukraine in your introduction. However, what are the other countries?

[Maria Barrados]

Those are the three countries we have been involved with most recently. However, we have also done work with South Africa. I must also say that we get a lot of visitors every year, somewhere between 20 and 25. They always visit the PSC with a view to having a general discussion on the public service and on human resources. They are mainly interested in our expertise with regard to our personnel appraisal and selection processes.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you very much.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. Barrados.

Was Al Johnson responsible for part of the program in South Africa?

[Maria Barrados]

Absolutely.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

When I was in government, the current President of South Africa was our match. All the provinces were matched with various states in South Africa, and Mr. Zuma was a sort of intern with us for a period of time. It was an interesting connection. It was a very worthwhile project.

I'm very familiar with some of the work that's been done in Kenya as well. It's been quite outstanding.

What is the budget of your foreign policy, in a sense? Does it come from within, or is it simply done in response to CIDA projects. Do you coordinate with CIDA for the work that's being done? How does it work?

[Maria Barrados]

First, I think the real value of connections is that you establish them where senior Canadian officials have ongoing connections with other senior officials, who can be presidents.

Now, with respect to the budget, my comment had been that it is rather ad hoc. So in my organization I have about 1.5 people committed to international work. The rest is a function of an event and funding for that particular event, and in our case, that would involve the travel. We had a symposium in China. I would have to find the money for the travel, usually within my own budgets.

More elaborate work, like South Africa, was funded through IDRC. Ukraine is funded through CIDA. Mongolia would be a modest effort, unless it were turned into something more collaborative, involving volunteers and finding some method of garnering more funding, either from CIDA or some other organization.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Do you specifically work in collaboration with the provinces or is this exclusively a federal initiative?

[Maria Barrados]

It depends. We involve provinces, depending on what the interests are. The Chinese, obviously, are very interested in what happens in provinces and the relationships between provinces and the federal government. So I do work with my colleagues in the provinces.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

But there's nothing formal in terms of how it's done?

[Maria Barrados]

No, and that's really my wish. I think there is an opportunity without getting a big bureaucracy—because I don't think that really helps, as it takes up a lot of resources—to do something less ad hoc, because there is a lot demand and I think a lot can be accomplished.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Good.

Those were my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Pearson.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I guess I have a question.

When we talk about trade and CIDA and Foreign Affairs, I'm wondering how that mechanism works. When you decide that you're going to go to a country, how is that coordinated? Who takes the lead in that? How are the needs determined?

[Maria Barrados]

The way it has worked and the practice that we have developed is that I get lots of requests. I have many visitors who come here and there are lots of invitations. So I check with Foreign Affairs and ask, “Do you think this is a good idea?” When I had the request to sign an MOU with the Organization Department of the Communist Party of China, I went to Foreign Affairs and asked, “Is this a good idea?” They said, “Yes, absolutely, it's an excellent idea. We want to have that kind of connection.” Then we would go ahead and initiate the discussions on having a memorandum of understanding. I wouldn't sign anything until it went through Foreign Affairs.

In the case of other aid projects—and there were some others I didn't mention that were smaller, the ones that get funded by CIDA—they have gone through CIDA's whole screening process. In the case of Ukraine, for example, it's a CIDA-funded project, and our work and costs would be covered by that project—though not salaries, because once you're a public servant the salaries aren't covered.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Merci. Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.