Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 28th, 2010

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Your testimony makes me think of a great speech I heard last night by John Furlong about just who we are as Canadians and what the Olympics did for us by helping us to realize that.

Taking a look at your opening comments, it seems to me that we as Canadians sometimes really seriously undersell ourselves and what we have to offer the world. I'll take a look at one sentence and then ask you a question. In your opening testimony you said, “Studies by the World Bank have found that there is a strong correlation between a country's competitiveness and prosperity and the quality of its public sector.” We can offer exactly that because of the strength of the Public Service Commission if we can develop this idea.

I wonder if you could give us a practical idea of exactly how we have been involved in Ukraine. I understand there is somebody coming from Ukraine to be a witness at this committee, so you won't necessarily want to be duplicating her words, but just give us a broad-brush picture so that we as committee members can understand what Canadians have been doing in Ukraine.

[Maria Barrados]

There's been long-term CIDA funding and public service reform and renewal in Ukraine. There are going to be two people coming to your committee to speak about that project. In fact one of the people working on that project will be flying from Kiev to meet with the committee because she wants to have that conversation.

I think it's a very effective project because there are committed Ukrainians there who are supported by their government. They are working with Canadian experts. So there are on-the-ground Canadian experts working with these Ukrainians, who are then implementing.... So some of it becomes fairly mechanical, but if you think of implementing a classification system so you know what everybody in your organization is doing and what level they should be paid at--and they should be paid on the basis of the work they do rather than on the basis of whom they know or what political connection they have--that's a huge task. To do that in the public service we have young Ukrainians who want to reform and speak both languages. Canadians go there and work with them, and the changes are occurring.

It takes time. We have ups and downs. Sometimes when it looks as though something is really going well, something will come up and it will slow down. But significant progress is being made, and I think you'll have an interesting discussion with the people who are working on that project. It's a very interesting model.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

We're going to move to the last individual for this round, Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Barrados, for being here. We were just chatting before your presentation, and you said this is the first time you have been at the foreign affairs committee, so welcome.

I also think it's important that we understand the opportunities here. Just after being elected, I actually had the opportunity to go to Iraq. An initiative sponsored by Forum of Federations led me to it. The conference was actually sponsored by an Italian group, but they had seen some of the work that Forum of Federations had done. For obvious reasons they were interested in governance issues and were extremely interested in how a post-Saddam Baath government could work. Frankly, one of the dilemmas in Iraq is that they haven't had the opportunity to have that conversation in time to look at what can be done.

They were enormously interested in Canada. You talk about resource allocation. At the time, I said if you looked at the front page of our paper you'd see one of the premiers of our provinces and the Prime Minister having it out over resource allocation. I said they weren't at war with each other, which of course meant physically. I said that's important, because we have a framework; we have responsibilities. Some are constitutional and known and others are agreed to over time. They also have linguistic differences. They have a majority-minority situation within regions. They desperately wanted to have help in terms of set-up for governance.

I guess you could go around the world and talk about different regions and similar opportunities for Canada to support governance in either post-conflict or developing nations.

I don't think anyone around this table would disagree that we should be doing this. I think it's a matter of how we do it, and your points are well taken that there's a massive opportunity when you consider the people who are retiring from the public service. We have management colleges like Rigaud, in Gatineau, which I know well because my father helped set up one of them, for things like customs.

Do you know what the government's strategy is with regard to taking the opportunity for Canada to be involved, or, as you indicated in your comments, at this point is it nascent and ad hoc? Maybe I'll just stop there, and then we can go from there.

[Maria Barrados]

I think it's a very good question. From my point of view, there isn't a strategic plan to do this, but that doesn't mean somebody at Foreign Affairs doesn't have one. It would be a very good question for them, and it's very important to do.

On this idea of mutual interest, it should be something that's in the interest of Canada, as well as something the country wants. So you need both sides. Foreign Affairs has contacts around the globe, and they're in the best position to make that judgment and say, “We should give some priority here and not there, put an emphasis here and not there, or a small one here.” I think that would be very helpful.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Maybe our parliamentary secretary on the committee could help us with that, if there is a strategic plan on this. If not, we might recommend that if there is a strategic plan on this file, that it be illuminated. If not, perhaps it's a recommendation we could put forward.

You intimated--and I think there's something to be said here--that costs could be shared. We know where China is at economically these days. There are other jurisdictions where they are able to.... I'm not talking about a money-making venture here, but at least look at sharing the burden of cost.

Has that ever happened, or at this point are we just paying from your budget and through projects? Are there any costs shared in any of the projects you've been involved in?

[Maria Barrados]

China is a good example. When the work started with China in the 1990s we were paying for the Chinese to come to us. We were paying their expenses when they came and spent time here for training. When we do work with China, they pay their own way and we pay our own way.

The last couple of times I've gone to China to do lectures at their schools, they've wanted to pay me for doing that. I have enormous trouble accepting money as a public servant, so I don't accept any of that money. But there is a willingness to pay for things to be done if they really need it, and they certainly pay their own expenses.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Finally, in the area of the projects you've done, it isn't just about us going there, as you mentioned, in the capacity we have here. It's about bringing people here. It's hard to generalize, but do you have a preference as to how it works? Is it 50-50? Should we be staying in situ and bringing people here? In your work is there a method or mix that seems to work well, or do you evaluate each case as it comes to you?

[Maria Barrados]

I think it has to be done on a case-by-case basis, depending upon the level of people you're dealing with and the kinds of issues they're confronted with.

Mr. Rae used the example of South Africa, where it was a two-way effort, and there was quite a bit of travel of South Africans to Canada. The results of that were profound, because we have senior people throughout the South African government who have that connection and experience with Canada. It allowed them to have mentors they could contact. But I think it depends on the individual circumstances and the types of things you're trying to do.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Good. Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Dewar.

We'll now move to our second round. I think we have time for at least a couple of rounds.

Mr. Lunney, you have five minutes.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you very much, Madame Barrados, for being here. It's a fascinating discussion. You talked about the rich resource in the retirement community, especially with so many of our senior public servants retiring. I think you mentioned 9% average--

[Maria Barrados]

--of executives.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Yes. On Vancouver Island we have a huge human resource in our retirement community, because we've had people from across Canada retire to that beautiful part of Canada--to duck the snow that's coming this way, I guess.

So I get the concept, and I particularly appreciate the way you framed it. I think I heard you say you have a big need in international demand, which we certainly recognize in this committee. We're very interested in creating governance capacity in many of the nations we're trying to help, to make sure the aid we're delivering has a hope of being delivered effectively.

You mentioned strong demand and mutual interest, and you see that creates tremendous opportunity. I like the way you framed that. Are other nations partnering this way? Can we point to other successful models? Are other nations, like some of our partners around the world--Australia, New Zealand, the EU, the U.K.--doing this type of thing with their established civil services? Are we aware of any models we might look to?

[Maria Barrados]

They vary. The Australians have been much more aggressive and have invested a lot more into having their schools and their public servants actually doing work in China than we have. There is a lot of variance, and I don't really have the expertise to say exactly how the models are different. But certainly, UNDP is very active and they draw on all the expertise they can get.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

What was that last one you said?

[Maria Barrados]

The United Nations Development Programme.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

[Maria Barrados]

The thing that is always a surprise to me.... I will be in one of these countries and the United Nations Development Programme people, or another developing agency, will be there and Canadians are working for them.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Great.

I'm picking up where Mr. Dewar was a moment ago with my next question. I would like to flesh this out a little bit. How do you actually envisage this happening?

I can see the need to send people over to these countries to sit down and examine what's going on there. The way I would see this is that you'd need to have visits both ways, really. You'd need to take them out of their context to come over here to see how our public service operates. And then you'd need to actually see the context there, too, because everything has to be in context in order to be appreciated. Sometimes we come with rose-coloured glasses and we assume we can just transplant very extensively developed services here to another nation that has very limited capacity.

Another question coming out of it is, what's your vision as to how you get started on this program? And I suppose it's going to vary according to the needs of the nation you're dealing with, isn't it, and the current capacity that exists?

[Maria Barrados]

Yes.

How you get started is on two levels. There have been various efforts to develop inventories of public servants who are interested in doing the work. A lot of people ask me because I've been around for a long time and I know a lot of people. I know the people who are leaving and I know what their interests are. But that will get stale-dated fairly quickly.

An association like APEX has done some of the work. People like Jocelyne Bourgon, a previous Clerk of the Privy Council, and David Holdsworth, the person I quoted, have at various times done something like this. You have those organizations that could do that inventory of your retirees and what their interests are.

I see that it's the government side that has to--either through a plan or a strategy--and again, not very big, but sort of say, “Where are the places where we, as a government, think we should be doing this?” It's that kind of matching that has to occur.

To actually then take it to the next step, there has to be an agreement on both sides in terms of, yes, what I would like and what we think we can productively offer.

Some of the discussions that we have had with the Mongolian prime minister.... He's keen on having a public service that operates like the Canadian public service. Well, it took us a hundred years and it's not going to happen overnight.

What is it we can do to begin to operationalize some of the grand ideas? Canadians are very pragmatic. They're good at taking a whole bunch of different ideas and things that look like there might be disconnects and making them work and making them move forward.

That's the real value in having those discussions and saying, “To solve these problems, these are some of the things you need and we can help you get there. Now you give us some people to work with.” I think the real models are where you have the collaborative work, working together, so it's not a matter of writing a report, dropping the report, and walking out.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

I can see there'd be short-term objectives and long-term strategies, obviously, that would need to be implemented.

[Maria Barrados]

Absolutely. Everything I've seen here has to have that longer-term connection. Just an in and out is really just a drop in the bucket. You have to be working with people, so there's a continuity and a willingness to continue keeping in touch. If somebody has a question about how something works, well, send me an e-mail. It's a wonderfully connected world.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

I'm also wondering, would it be possible to maybe send a letter to some of the people you have mentioned to maybe get some more input, as opposed to just having them here as witnesses? Maybe they could offer up some suggestions as well. That might be an idea. Maybe we'll just make sure we get the names so we can send something out.

We're going to finish off with Mr. Pearson for the last round.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Fascinating testimony here. I really like the idea about the retired pool of resources that's there.

Can I bring out a theoretical situation? We've been studying Sudan here as a committee. Many of us have been to Sudan many times, and what they've called for, even during the time of their civil war, was a better understanding of federalism, how you keep all of these various factions together that are quite divided. Part of the problem is that they're looking at political solutions, so when you try to talk to them about a civil service and building that up, it's a rare thing for them to understand. They continue to look at it politically.

Because the referendum is coming up, and let's say it goes as people presume and South Sudan becomes the world's newest country and it wishes support on this...do you have a capacity for a country that large? Let's say in South Sudan you have eight or nine million people. I'm wondering what your capacity would be if all of a sudden a request came from the Government of South Sudan to help them build a civil service. That's a pretty onerous charge, and I would just be interested to know what kind of capacity you have, if you have that, or if you could fulfill it.