Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 18th, 2010

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Yes.

[Sanne van den Bergh]

There have been movements, but we have no indication that it's to register in the south. There has been movement either because of insecurity or for economic reasons. We have no firm evidence of what the reasons are for this movement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Ms. van den Bergh.

We're now going to move over to Mr. Dorion, sir. The time is yours.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

I want to thank the witnesses for coming here to shed some light on these issues.

Mr. Bobiash, you met with representatives of the Arab League. Obviously we know that unlike the South, the North is predominantly Muslim.

Is it your impression that the Arab League intends to play a positive role in the referendum process? Does the Arab League intend to take an active role to ensure that the referendum takes place properly? If so, what exactly could it do?

[Donald Bobiash]

Perhaps my colleague Mr. Proudfoot, who is just back from meetings in Cairo, can answer those questions.

[Douglas Scott Proudfoot]

Thank you, Mr. Dorion.

I met with representatives of the Arab league at their headquarters in Cairo. I have to say the discussions focused primarily on the situation in Darfur. In my view, the Arab League's approach is generally very positive and constructive. The organization is heavily involved in the Darfur issue and promotes an approach in line with the peace process negotiated in Doha.

As far as the referendum itself goes, we exchanged views. The representatives of the Arab League have some influence in Khartoum. I for one believe that they can press the Sudanese government to uphold its commitments under the Comprehensive Peace Agreement. So then, in answer to your question, yes.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you. I'll yield the floor to my colleague Ms. Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

I might talk later about the situation of women. Several witnesses spoke to us about the fears that women living in North Sudan are experiencing. They are still forced to follow certain religious diktats, such as wearing a veil. They have a number of concerns.

A referendum would give each side its own territory. Do you discuss this matter during the course of your forums and meetings? Do you expect a kind of mass migration back to the south of southern Sudanese currently living in the north of the country?

There is an issue that women are concerned about. They are worried because their safety is threatened. They also feel that they have been left out in some respects of the discussions surrounding the current referendum process and its repercussions. Does this question ever come up in your discussions?

[Douglas Scott Proudfoot]

In fact it does. The question of human rights, including women's rights, is a key part of our commitment in Sudan. It is an issue that we have raised with Sudanese authorities and with NGOs as well. During our visit, we had occasion to meet with NGOs that specialize in human rights and with some that focus specifically on women's rights. This problem is prevalent throughout the country, not just in North Sudan. We're dealing with long-standing social problems.

As far as the referendum goes, we've observed a disturbing trend since Monday. At least two-thirds, and maybe even more, of the people who are registering to vote are men. We hope that more women will be registering in the weeks to come but for now, it is mostly men.

As for the southern Sudanese currently living in the north moving back to the south, we are already beginning to see this migration. Thousands have returned to the south in the past several weeks or months, but we're talking about thousands out of a total population of one and half million. To date, it has been difficult to gauge the extent of this movement, but the UN and the NGOs are making arrangements in the event a mass migration occurs.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It could potentially create problems and lead to conflicts.

[Douglas Scott Proudfoot]

Yes, it could.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Which projects top CIDA's priority list at the present time? You mentioned projects that focus on maternal health. Are other projects in the works, especially in rural areas, given the population movement? Another witness told us that there are concerns about China's buying up large tracts of land, thereby eliminating the possibility of peasant farmers being able to buy land to farm.

[Philip Baker]

I'm sorry, but I only recently moved back to Canada from Mozambique. I went three years without speaking any French.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

We have translation available.

[Philip Baker]

If you don't mind, I will answer in English, to make myself clearer.

I was going to say a little bit on the first part of your question.

CIDA is doing work, first of all, right across the country. Our programming is in all of Sudan. Within that, there are a number of different ways we have of supporting the roles for women in society.

The first thing I want to talk about a little bit is one initiative we have, for instance, that has 19 different projects for supporting NGOs to enhance the roles for women in Sudanese society. And that's right across the country. It's also for women and girls.

Also, I met with two representatives, Rachel Gouin and Eric Chaurette, from Inter Pares, a team we're supporting in Sudan. They're two Canadians who are working with Inter Pares. They're leading on a project that nurtures “action to transform structural obstacles to equitable and sustainable development”. The objective of their project is to promote articulated citizen voice and influence in favour of global justice and peace based on mutual respect, reciprocity, and interdependent diversity. But the main drive is giving a voice to women. On that front, it's been very successful.

They're operating in Sudan through the Gender Centre for Research and Training, which is a research, training, and advocacy institution working to promote gender equality and socio-economic change in Sudan. It's an important point, because within Sudan we have noticed that as an early development country, the notion of advocacy from NGOs is still quite weak. You have basic services being provided through NGOs quite a bit, but the advocacy side, especially on gender issues, still has a way to go. So programs like this one that CIDA has in place are quite strong.

The notion of all of Sudan, I think, is important. You mentioned that there's an awful lot of movement and migration. We want to make it clear that CIDA programming is not solely in Khartoum and Juba. It is spread out right across the region. It is also in the east, for example, and in the north of the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Baker.

Colleagues of the Carter Center, that was the Bloc Québécois, who are part of the opposition. Now we're moving over to the government side and Mr. Obhrai.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you for coming to give a brief here, and my thanks to the Carter Center from Khartoum.

I am well aware of the situation. The key element at this stage is a credible and transparent referendum that produces results acceptable to both parties. If that happens, then we go to the next stage, to see, after the referendum is done, what other steps Canada would take in building capacity. Can you give us a little brief on that?

For the Carter Center, let me throw in a different question. Mr. Bashir happens to be under indictment from the ICC. He is isolated, unable to travel, and his vice-president, Mr. Taha, seems to be doing everything on the international stage. This is a major impact, a major thing for a country. Politically speaking, is his isolation playing negatively in Sudan?

It's my understanding that when they made the CP Agreement, Mr. Bashir would get some legitimacy as a leader. But here you have a leader who, to be blunt, is not welcome in the international community. How does that play? Is this having an influence on the referendum? It's a tough question.

[Sanne van den Bergh]

You're asking whether the isolation of the central government, of Mr. Bashir, will have an impact on the referendum?

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Yes. I'm asking whether this isolation is having an effect on the political climate for the referendum. We're looking for a credible referendum. You're on the ground there, and I'm just trying to see what your view is.

[Sanne van den Bergh]

At the moment, a lot of the negotiations are about what will happen after the referendum. These negotiations involve both the AU panel and the special envoy. We understand that some of these discussions include issues such as the state of the north in case the south wishes to secede.

So it's not only about what will happen in the south, which has up until now been a major issue. Currently, there's a focus on the relationship between the north and the international community, as well as on future diplomatic relations if sanctions are imposed in the event of secession.

It's an important issue for all sides. I believe it has become more prominent in the last few months, largely because of interventions on the part of the mediators.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you.

What about Mr. Proudfoot and Mr. Bobiash? What's our role?

[Douglas Scott Proudfoot]

Mr. Obhrai asked about post-referendum issues. I would focus on a number of issues, and how Canada can contribute to that. I think the Carter Center speaker has mentioned the issue of citizenship. I think this is possibly the most important single post-2011 issue. There are approximately one and a half million southerners living in northern Sudan and several hundred thousand northerners living in southern Sudan. Their status after independence, if independence is what happens, is something that has to be resolved, because it can become a source of violence. It has to be resolved because their personal security and livelihoods are at stake.

On these and similar issues, Canada has been encouraging both sides through diplomatic means to negotiate in good faith, but also providing them some of the means to do so. For example, we commissioned research on the citizenship issue and have shared that with the north and south. We assembled a library of documents on citizenship but also other issues that arise in the case of a referendum, and we have shared that with both north and south. We're providing technical expertise on loan to the Government of South Sudan post-2011 task force to assist them in dealing with some of these post-2011 issues. We've also seconded an officer into the Assessment and Evaluation Commission, which is the commission that oversees and monitors the implementation of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement but is also providing the secretariat for the negotiations President Mbeki is presiding over on post-2011 issues.

So those are some of the examples of what we're doing to try to ensure a stable outcome based on a resolution of those post-referendum issues.

[Donald Bobiash]

Could I just add a couple of remarks? I think one of our teams has had discussions in both the north and south that, yes, we realize the referendum is a historic decision point for the people of North and South Sudan. All parties, especially those in government or politics, have to focus on the medium to long term regardless of the results. These two areas will be living together more or less with each other, and the governments still have to respond to the needs of their citizens. They have to think of very practical issues: health care, education, and so on.

Another one of the themes of our messages in the meetings was that Canada is here to help. We have a massive aid program, as do many other western countries in the UN system, but in the long term, this is not a poor region. It is a country rich in resources, and politically you have to develop policies to tap the benefits of these resources so that over the long term you are not dependent on aid; you are truly independent and autonomous.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We'll come back to you guys in the next round.

Now we're going to move to Mr. Dewar, sir, who, just for our colleagues at the Carter Center, is part of the NDP and part of the opposition as well.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our guests both here and in Khartoum.

I'm going to start with our friends in the Carter Center.

I noted from your presentation documents that you had 50 registered observers for the registration process. I just wanted to get an idea of scope. What are you looking at in terms of...? If you've got LTOs and STOs, how many of both will you have for the actual referendum, or has that been finalized yet?