Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 4th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I'd like to call to order meeting number four of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and our briefing on the situation in Libya.

To all of our guests, some who have been here before and some who are here for the first time, welcome. Thank you for taking the time to be with us.

From CIDA, we have with us Vincent LePape, director, North Africa and Middle East, as well as Leslie Norton, the director general of the international humanitarian assistance directorate.

I don't believe you have any opening statements, but you'll be here to answer questions.

We also have with us, from the Department of National Defence, Lieutenant-Colonel Robin Holman, assistant deputy judge advocate general, operations, and Brigadier-General Craig King, director general, operations, strategic joint staff.

Welcome. I don't believe you have any opening statements but you're here to answer questions, so thank you very much.

From the Department of Foreign Affairs, we have with us Marie Gervais-Vidricaire--I'm working on my French pronunciation--director general of the stabilization and reconstruction task force, START. Thank you for being here.

That leaves us with you, Ms. Martin. You're the last one. You're going to give us our opening statement for today.

I think all of you know how the committee works. After the opening remarks, we'll have questions from around the room. Again, thanks to all of you for being here and for taking the time to brief us on Libya.

Without more conversation, I'm going to turn it over to you, Ms. Martin, to brief us with your opening statements.

[Barbara Martin, Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Members of the committee, it's truly a great pleasure to meet with you today against the backdrop of a Libya that has seen tremendous changes in recent weeks. Most of the Libyan people, including those in Tripoli, are now freed from the control of the Gadhafi regime.

Despite this positive progress, there are still civilians under threat in a few cities in which the pro-Gadhafi forces are fiercely resisting the reality of the end of the regime. Fighting is still ongoing around Sirte and Bani Walid, where the pro-Gadhafi forces are making a stand.

Consequently, on September 21 NATO decided to extend its mission, Operation Unified Protector, for 90 days beyond the September 27 end date. Last week members of Parliament voted overwhelmingly in favour of continuing Canada's leadership role in that mission to protect Libyan civilians and help the Libyan transition to a post-Gadhafi era.

As the loyalist forces retreated over the summer, Canada has responded quickly with a number of steps to support the new Libya.

On August 25, Canada accredited the new Libyan chargé d'affaires appointed by the National Transitional Council (NTC) and committed to interact with the NTC as Lybia's government until an elected government is in place.

On September 1, Prime Minister Harper attended the Paris Friends of Libya Conference where he met with the chair of the executive board of the NTC, Mahmud Jibril, and informed him directly of the lifting of Canada's unilateral sanctions imposed on the Libyan government under the Special Economic Measures Act.

At the same time, Canada approached the United Nations for approval to make available to the Libyan authorities funds frozen under United Nations resolutions 1970 and 1973. After receiving the necessary approvals from the UN's sanctions committee, Minister Baird announced on September 13 that Canada would be unfreezing all Libyan assets held in Canada and Canadian institutions. This was worth approximately $2.2 billion.

The unfreezing is a complicated process because the funds are held in the U.K. branches of Canadian banks and are denominated in U.S. dollars. However, the steps necessary to release the funds are largely complete, and we are in discussions with the National Transitional Council about where they wish the funds to be directed.

Most recently, on September 20 the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs participated in a high-level meeting on Libya in New York, which was hosted by the United Nations Secretary General. This meeting was to coordinate international assistance to the Libyan-led transition. Minister Baird met with Mr. Jabril again at that time to discuss Canada's involvement.

As you may know, on September 16 the UN Security Council adopted resolution 2009, which establishes the United Nations support mission in Libya under the leadership of special representative of the Secretary General Ian Martin. The mission has been established for an initial three-month period to support Libyan efforts to, among other objectives, restore public security and order and promote the rule of law.

It also eased the sanctions imposed in UN Security Council resolutions 1970 and 1973, including easing the arms embargo to allow importation of items intended for security and disarmament assistance to the Libyan authorities, as well as of small arms and light weapons for the use of UN personnel, media, and development workers.

We are currently examining ways of supporting Libya's transition through targeted stabilization assistance. Consultations are under way with the UN and with the NTC to ensure that Canada's contribution is coordinated with international partners and responds to the needs identified by the Libyans themselves. Canada will align its support and assistance within the framework agreed with the NTC.

We have identified four areas where we believe we could have significant value added and will be developing programming: first, good governance and institution building; second, security and rule of law; third, economic development; and four, human rights and the role of women.

The UN will be leading a series of seven post-conflict needs assessment missions. Canada has expressed an interest in participating in a number of them, in particular those regarding public security and rule of law; disarmament, demobilization, and reintegration of former combatants; and possibly, electoral and constitutional needs.

In addition to the support for Libya and the implementation of the UN resolutions, the government is also working to return full services to Canadians in Libya through our embassy in Tripoli, including support for Canadian companies. On September 13, following an assessment mission undertaken in early September by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade and the Department of National Defence, Minister Baird announced that Canada had re-established its diplomatic presence in Libya. This was six and a half months after evacuating all personnel and suspending operations. We deployed a skeleton team to liaise with the NTC and to prepare the way for more staff.

The embassy is currently operating from a temporary location while the chancery is restored for operations. There was no damage to the chancery, per se, but some work was needed and security measures had to be upgraded to enable operations to resume from that site.

The Canadian ambassador to Libya, Sandra McCardell, who I believe you've already met, has returned to Tripoli. As soon as an appropriate level of security is in place, the embassy will resume operations and will be able to provide services to Canadians.

Given Canada's role in liberating Libya and the ongoing need in Libya to restore the economy and to rebuild governance institutions for the new democratic Libya, the embassy complement will be expanded, at least for the immediate term. This will help to increase its capacity for political analysis, engagement with the NTC, and promotion of Canadian commercial interests.

Canadian officials are in regular contact with companies that were previously active in Libya or that have indicated an interest in becoming so to discuss how the Government of Canada can best support their interests.

Our embassy team in Tripoli has reported important changes on the ground. Traffic jams are back in Tripoli—a sign both that basic commodities like fuel are available and that people have the confidence to leave their homes. The overall atmosphere is almost festive, with the flags of the new Libya prominently displayed throughout the city, and children and adults alike dressed in T-shirts and ball caps of red, black and green stripes. Outside of specific areas where fierce fighting took place, such as Misrata, the infrastructure of Libya is largely intact.

In Tripoli, the precision of NATO strikes over the past months is evident. Some buildings are damaged, but little else. Libya is not a poor country. Its oil wealth is a foundation for the rebuilding that must take place. While there was some damage to oil facilities, repairs are already under way and production is being restored. It will take approximately a year for production to be restored to pre-revolution levels.

Despite these very positive signs, there are real challenges on the horizon. Many of the demands for a better quality of life that preceded the conflict--improved education, medical services, and employment--remain. Expectations for rapid improvement after four decades of stagnation are rising quickly.

The NTC, which has done a good job so far of maintaining order, is still in the process of restoring security forces and decommissioning various militias that had undertaken the fighting to free Libya. It's also in the difficult process of establishing an interim government. While it had ambitions of having this done last month, it has proven more challenging than anticipated. With Libya now free and with the shared goal of ridding the country of the Gadhafi regime, the NTC must develop cohesion among disparate political views and accommodate those with personal ambitions.

There have been ongoing efforts to broaden the membership of the executive council in order to make it more representative and inclusive; however, agreement has thus far proven elusive. Just yesterday the chairman of the NTC announced that its cabinet had been formed, but this was largely a confirmation of most of the individuals who had been in the previous cabinet.

According to local reporting and interviews with Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, the current chairman of the NTC, the formation of the new cabinet will now be postponed until after victory has been declared. Victory will likely be declared after the capture of Sirte and Bani Walid. Once this has happened, the current temporary government, the cabinet of which was just confirmed yesterday, will be dissolved and a new transitional government will be formed within a month.

In recent interviews Mr. Jalil has said that it is more important at this stage to have a competent cabinet that can quickly bring the country back to a more normal state. A representative cabinet will be formed after the elections are held. As the one current leader who seems to have the moral authority and leadership abilities that most Libyans seem to accept, his voice is probably the clearest indication of what shape the future political landscape will take.

Other challenges include ensuring respect for human rights and the rule of law in a country that has little experience of democracy; reconciling diverse elements and preventing retaliatory attacks so that all find their future in the new Libya; and thirdly, gaining control of the many thousands of weapons now circulating in the country and the young men who carry them.

And of course, Gadhafi remains at large with an unknown degree of influence. These are significant hurdles to overcome. How these challenges are addressed will establish the country's path for the months and years to come.

In closing, I'd like to share that there's a good amount of good will toward Canada in Libya as a result of our decisive action within the NATO mission. The chairman of the NTC, Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, in his first public address on his return to Tripoli thanked Canada specifically for its assistance. Given the overwhelming support in Parliament for Canada's continued participation in Operation Unified Protector, Canada will continue to play a key role in protecting civilians in Libya as the Libyan people work together to rebuild their new country.

The team and I would be very happy to respond to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Ms. Martin.

The NDP's going to start out.

Madame Laverdière.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank Ms. Martin for her presentation and I thank all of you for being here this morning.

My first question concerns military activity. I would very much like to hear Brigadier-General King explain to us in more detail the activities being conducted by NATO at this time.

As a preamble, we know for instance that the Libyans are holding off on attacking Sirte themselves because there are still a lot of civilians within the city. Resistance forces now are really in urban areas. There were also some brief reports in certain newspapers stating that civilians may have been killed by NATO forces, in Sirte in particular.

And so we would like to hear some further explanations on NATO activities at this time in the field.

[BGen Craig King, Director General, Operations, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence]

Thank you very much, madam. If you have no objection, I am going to reply in my mother tongue.

Thanks for your question. It's a good one.

We're closely monitoring the situation in Sirte right now. Sirte is a pivotal stronghold for the pro-regime forces. The fact that it's also Colonel Gadhafi's home town adds a certain symbolism to it.

The NATO activities have continued. We're continuing to operate under UN Security Council Resolution 1973, and most recently the resolution of 2009. So all the activities that are being undertaken by NATO and by Canadian Forces in support of the NATO mission are to protect the civilians. Accordingly, the level of military activity has been tailored to the situation around Sirte.

You are right to point out that it's an urban environment and in that environment it's extremely difficult for pilots to operate and to distinguish targets. Extra care is being applied to avoid the scenario you described.

With respect to the situation on the ground, there has been a management of the NATO air strike campaign, and the campaign has been tailored back. So it's been scaled appropriately to make sure that whatever NATO is doing there is in support of the mandate.

I can tell you that the situation is being monitored closely, and that the force being applied by NATO and Canadian Forces is in support of the mandate that we've been operating under from the start. But you're right, it is a much more difficult environment within which to operate.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you for this answer.

Is there still bombing going on in Bani Walid and in Sirte? In Sirte, is there bombing going on around the city but also in the city?

Thank you.

[BGen Craig King]

The situation is being managed by the commander on the ground. So where the pockets of resistance are--Bani Walid and Sirte--and where those civilian populations have been threatened, force has been applied.

Given the situation on the ground, the commander will apply a level of force appropriate to the situation, so it changes regularly. You can appreciate that the fighting right now is in a very fluid state. I can tell you that force has been applied in the vicinity of Sirte and Bani Walid, but where pockets of resistance exist within that city--and we are talking about two major pockets of resistance in Sirte--the report I just read this morning had the southernmost pocket in the hands of the anti-Gadhafi forces. So where that has occurred there is probably not going to be as much of an effort applied.

There is still the application of force, but I have to tell you that it changes on a frequent basis, given the fluid nature of the situation on the ground.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much. I know I only have a few minutes left, but we can come back to that.

I understand that there will be a mission to assess on-the-ground needs for the reconstruction of Libya. I would like Ms. Gervais-Vidricaire to give us a broad outline of what Canada can contribute to that.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire, Director General, Stabilization and Reconstruction Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you for your question.

Indeed, there will be several needs assessment missions. The international community has agreed that these missions be coordinated in large measure by the United Nations. There are several of them. In fact, there are ten, seven of which are being coordinated by the United Nations.

As we said previously, the United Nations has opened an office in Tripoli. However, finding the proper people to talk to constitutes a real challenge for the people on the ground, because determining their needs must of course be done in very close cooperation and consultation with the Libyans themselves.

In light of the situation which prevailed until yesterday when the cabinet was reconfirmed, it was apparently very difficult to find the proper interlocutors. We hope the situation will improve.

Canada hopes to be a part of some of these needs assessment missions. We expressed particular interest in the mission that will be focusing on public safety and rule of law issues, as well as on disarmament, demobilization and reintegration.

In fact, our Stabilization and Reconstruction Task Force—the START—will as of next week send an agent who will be on site and provide liaison with the on-site United Nations office and other partners. I think that will be very useful.

We had hoped that these assessment missions would submit their conclusions around the end of September or the beginning of October. However, I think that they will need a little more time.

However, some needs that are already quite obvious have been identified by the Libyans, such as the need for mine clearance, and what to do with unexploded bombs and ammunition, which remain a threat.

The United Nations demining services are examining the issue. Since this is a very urgent need they are looking at this very closely because this is something that could perhaps be done relatively quickly.

Overall, I think that the operative rule is to favour coordination with the international community through the United Nations and close cooperation with the Libyans. As long as they have not clearly determined what they would like the international community to do, we will have to be patient.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to now move to Ms. Brown. The floor is yours.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here this morning. I think this is quite timely for us to be hearing from you.

I'd like to turn to CIDA, because I think that's been a very important part of what Canada has done there. Canada responded as soon as we knew that there was turmoil; we got involved right away. I wonder if you could give us a little bit of history of how we got involved with the situation there. What are the current needs? Is there something for Canada in the future in terms of continuing our assistance?

I had the opportunity a couple of weeks ago to meet with people from the Red Cross, as you know, and we had some conversations about that. They were telling me about some of the things they've been involved with, but I wonder if you could tell us about the partners we're working with and how effective that has been on the ground.

I'm just going to turn it over to you, because I'm sure you can give us lots of information.

[Leslie Norton, Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance Directorate, Canadian International Development Agency]

Thanks very much for the question.

I'll share the response with my colleague from the bilateral program, if I may, but I'll begin by saying that I think many of us are aware that in many of the conflict-affected parts of Libya there is a lot of stability right now. On the humanitarian front, Libya is stabilizing, and a lot of our humanitarian partners are starting to think toward closing down their humanitarian response and turning to reconstruction or early recovery and reconstruction. That's the first part.

Canada was there during that humanitarian response phase, was one of the first donors to respond to the UN and the Red Cross appeals. We responded within the total of $10.6 million. Our partners included the variety of the partners within the UN itself, from the World Food Program to UNHCR--the UN High Commissioner for Refugees--and IOM, as well as the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, and the Canadian Red Cross.

As we all know, at the outset of the conflict many folks moved. There was lots of movement, a lot of displaced people both within the country as well as outside the country. For the folks who moved outside the country, it was predominantly UNHCR and IOM that were taking care of them, and many of the third-country nationals were returned to their countries of origin.

In-country currently, a fair number of displaced people remain. The totals are estimated at between 100,000 and 150,000. That brings me to Bani Walid and Sirte. In Bani Walid alone, we estimate that there are about 40,000 displaced people. We have reports from the ICRC from the weekend. They had managed to get into Sirte for a first mission, and we understand from the media reports, which I think we're all party to, that they attempted a second visit and assessment, but they were not able to do it because of the violence.

They visited the hospital to do an assessment of what the requirements were, and they found, of course, the need for oxygen and fuel within the hospital itself. There are a lot of people who have been affected by the current besieging of the city and they're in desperate need of medical aid. We understand that there are thousands of civilians also streaming out of Sirte. We also understand that the UN is trying to prepare.... Stockpile is perhaps not the correct term, but they're bringing the assistance in and around the city in anticipation of the movement of people outside the city.

So that's the current context. The remaining humanitarian needs are very localized, and the partners that CIDA Canada has financed are in fact there and they continue to be there very actively. Primarily it is the ICRC within the context of Sirte and Bani Walid, but also UNICEF has been, I understand, distributing water to those who have left Bani Walid.

With the stabilization of the humanitarian situation throughout the country, in some the humanitarian response will be decreasing as the early recovery and reconstruction elements start to pick up speed.

At this point I'll turn to my colleague, Vincent LePape, to speak about the longer-term nature of CIDA's involvement.

[Vincent LePape, Director, North Africa and Middle East, Canadian International Development Agency]

Thank you for your question.

To date we do not have a bilateral program in Libya and CIDA has not funded any development assistance projects. As my colleague mentioned, CIDA support was limited to humanitarian assistance.

For the future we are awaiting the outcome of the Libyan stabilization team assessment--all the assessments that were mentioned by my colleagues--to see what the needs are for the future, because now it's still very unclear. So DFAIT is participating in this assessment, and CIDA is closely monitoring the file. At this point we are waiting for the outcome of the assessment.

Thank you.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Can you give us any indication of the status of Libya's ability to create their own food supply? Was Libya self-sufficient in the past? They have many resources. As we are putting the money back into unfreezing all of those assets, they will have access to their own funding, but what is the ability of Libya to produce its own food, or its own food chain? Do we have any idea how long it will take them to re-establish those connections if they've been lost, or to get back to their own food production?

[Vincent LePape]

Thank you for the question.

In fact, Libya is a relatively rich country and is not dependent on development assistance. Therefore, I guess its reconstruction and its future must be led and funded largely by the Libyan people themselves. There are various reports on the timing under which it will be able to get back to the level of production for oil revenue, for example, but there will be a stabilization period and a time during which they may need assistance. But in the long run, it's clear that the Libyan people will have their own resources.

[Leslie Norton]

If I may simply complement that, currently in the UN plan they do outline food insecurity as one of the current challenges, so in fact you're bang-on on that question. I think Libya has a history of being a food importer, and the fact that it is rich in resources has enabled it to manage its own food security issues. The issue of production is one thing, but it's really the ability to have the resources to continue to import in the future.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Mr. Eyking.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Chair, and I thank the witnesses for coming here today and giving us this brief.

My question is more on the democratic institutions in this country and how we're going to be able to help them to go through this process.

When the Iron Curtain came down in Berlin, twenty-some years ago, these former East Bloc countries needed to learn how to go through this whole process after being under communism, so a lot of the assistance that not only the European Union gave to them, we gave to them—everything from training, their elections, governance, judicial systems, military restrictions, the whole thing.

I visited Poland to open up their stock exchange, and they told me they took a lot of the things that Canada does and they used them. They used part of our Constitution, they used our charter of rights. I see the same thing unfolding here as we deal with the NTC.

I guess my question is, what is our game plan? Is Canada going to be working with other countries, similar to what we did in the East Bloc countries? One would think it would be easier, because you're only dealing with one country, but I think it's probably more complicated because of the whole make-up of this country, especially dealing with the military. So what is the game plan in a little more detail? How are we going to go in there and deal with them and show them the way? Will we be bringing some of their people here to Canada to go through that whole institutional process for democratic reform?

[Barbara Martin]

Perhaps I might start in response to your question, and then I'll turn it over to Ms. Gervais-Vidricaire to add in the details.

Unlike the East Bloc countries, Libya was not a closed society, and many Libyans who went back to participate in the revolution have had extensive experience in western countries. Mr. Jalil himself is a lawyer with extensive experience in the western world as well. So they don't have such a great deficit of capacity within the country itself.

That said, the reconstitution of democratic institutions and the economic institutions as well, in terms of a more open model, an economic environment that is not under the central control of the Gadhafi regime and his associates, but rather operates more on market principles, are elements where Libya will need some expert technical assistance and advice. It is one of the four priority areas that Canada has identified where we would be able to provide a certain amount of assistance, based on our experience in eastern Europe but also in other countries that are undergoing major transitions as well.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

Yes, to complement what has been said, certainly democratization will be quite a challenge and one to which we should be able to contribute positively.

One of the assessment missions led by the United Nations will have to do with the electoral and constitutional processes, so we will see what is required. I think the purpose of the assessment mission is to organize a division of labour at some point, so that countries interested in making a positive contribution, like Canada, will be able to do their share while avoiding unnecessary duplication.

It's worth mentioning, of course, that at the government level we want to do our share and we want to do it right. I know for a fact that some Canadian NGOs—and I have in mind, for example, Rights and Democracy—are already quite interested. Of course, they have lots of experience in the area of democracy, democratization, electoral processes, and so forth. There will be a number of actors involved. It's important that governments do their part, but the role of civil society NGOs is very important as well.

At this point in time it's difficult to tell you exactly what we're going to do because we don't have the results of the assessment mission.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

It takes more than one person to make this evolve. You're talking about the one leader, but you want, really, the population as a whole....

Is there any thought on what kind of system would be set up there? Would it be a parliamentary system? Would it be similar to the United States? Is anybody talking about what's going to be set up? I'm sure right now they don't have too many MPs and things floating around. So what do you see there?

[Barbara Martin]

The National Transitional Council had issued a draft constitutional declaration last summer. It maps out some of the framework elements. They envisage a presidential system and also a multi-party system. The exact composition of their parliament, or congress, or whatever they choose to call it, has not yet been determined. One of the critical functions of the transitional government when it is appointed will be to set up a constitutional commission that will then map out exactly how they will choose to govern themselves as they go forward.

It will be an important debate in Libya. Competing visions will need to be reconciled. There are also regional differences that need to be reconciled and accommodated. The revolution began in Benghazi, which is in the western part of the country, and moved towards Tripoli in the eastern part of the country, which is the most populous part of the country. Those who initiated this process are not representative of the entire country, so a significant process of reconciliation will need to be undertaken. I think this was reflected in the challenge of appointing an interim cabinet and why it was delayed to allow some behind-the-scenes discussions to determine the way forward.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

You know what happened in Yemen. Yemen has a parliamentary system, but you have two factions and they just can't seem to.... You could also have that in Libya.

My time's up? Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

That ends the first round. We'll move into our second round, which will be five minutes for questions and answers.

We'll start with Mr. Dechert.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your appearance here today.

I'd like to start with Ms. Martin if I may and just refer to a media report this past weekend that a Turkish airline plane has landed in Tripoli, restoring some international commercial flights to Tripoli. I wonder if you can update us on Canada's travel warnings to Canadian citizens who may be interested in travelling to Libya.