Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 4th, 2011

[Barbara Martin]

Happily.

Ambassador McCardell is not here because she's in Tripoli. That's a major step forward in terms of building up the strength of our embassy complement. I would start off by saying that we have re-established our diplomatic presence in Libya. We never actually broke off diplomatic relations with them through this situation. About two weeks ago we put in a very small team to prepare the way, to get our communications systems back up and running, and they are now back up and running. We have our direct telephone links back with them. Our secure computer systems are back functioning again and they are starting to operate out of our chancery building, which is where the embassy offices are actually located. They've been operating from a hotel for the last couple of weeks.

As we look forward, as Marie has mentioned, we've put out temporarily experts in legal contractual issues vis-à-vis business individuals. We have redeployed a trade commissioner into the embassy to help Canadian business people who may start to become interested in it. We are looking at deploying a political officer to help provide analysis of the situation in the country and we are in discussions about supplementary staff that could be useful to them. Primarily, we are seeking from Ambassador McCardell her advice on what she needs on the ground to be able to deliver what the government expects of her. So that's under way.

We will be doing this prudently, in that we do see an initial surge in the requirements at the embassy in Tripoli and we will do an assessment in the spring to determine what would be needed going forward after the summer. So we are calibrating our response in the context of the ongoing strategic review, which I'm sure you are aware of, to ensure that we do provide the necessary services but that they are done within the context of restraint that all government departments are currently facing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I'm going to turn it back over to the NDP and I believe Madame Laverdière and Mr. Morin are going to share their time together.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'll be very rapid, as I know my colleagues also have questions.

I'd like to get back to the military issue and ask Brigadier-General King to comment on the following question.

Isn't it true that if we have military action from the air basically bombing in an urban environment, we significantly increase the risk of civilian casualties while--excuse my expression--the return, what we can gain from it, is not that great, as those kinds of situations are usually resolved on the ground?

[BGen Craig King]

Thanks very much.

What you're referring to is the process of targeting that the military forces use in considering the application of force, irrespective of the environment in which it occurs. For security reasons, I will not go into the details of that process. But I will tell you that it is an elaborate process with a number of mechanisms to ensure that the damage on the ground is no more than is necessary to achieve the military objective, that it safeguards civilian life to the fullest extent possible, and that our military pilots, notwithstanding all of those mechanisms, at the end of the day provide the final safeguard in the application of force by deciding whether to expend their ordnance or not.

Through all of that process, I can say that the way we have prosecuted the campaign in support of the UN Security Council resolution has been with the a minimum amount of damage on the ground and loss of life among civilians.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

My question is addressed to Ms. Martin.

Libya is not a country known for its democratic system: it is a country that has a long history of tribal rivalries. What point have we reached when besieged people are ready to die? We see that the last rebels will be there making a stand until the very end. Generally, when we get to that point, it is because there is a political impasse. I wonder to what extent the tribal or ethnic component of the conflict has been assessed and studied. The roots of some situations may be even more remote.

Among other projects, Gadhafi had planned to build a 700-km pipeline in order to drain the water table in one part of the country and redirect it to another region, so as to develop agriculture; for this agricultural work he wanted to bring in 5 million workers from neighbouring countries. Now that the conflict has reached a near-final phase where everyone is going to die, shouldn't we ask ourselves whether the grievances of some of these people might be legitimate, whether they really fear for their lives or their long- term future ?

[Barbara Martin]

Thank you very much.

That's actually a very good question. It's also a difficult question to answer, because I think we have yet to see exactly how some rivalries or differences of view might play out in Libya.

You're absolutely right that there are different tribal groups, there are different ethnic groups, and there are different religious perspectives in the country as well. And there is an east-west divide, as I described earlier, between the Benghazi and the Tripoli areas. I think the challenges we've seen for the National Transitional Council to form a new cabinet have been in part a reflection of the challenges they face.

That said, thus far we are not seeing the tribal or ethnic issues emerging as predominant in the discussions. The issues are more around what the nature of the country going forward is going to be, to what extent groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood would find themselves represented within political structures as they go forward. Those are difficult issues for Libyans. It's clearly an Islamic state, but they are going to have to address exactly what is the colour and the nature of that state.

With respect to water, I think you may be referring to the great man-made river project, which is in fact under way. Elements of that provide water already to Tripoli and a number of major cities around Tripoli. It's a project that is still being completed, and there are more phases to be done. So clearly, negotiations have been under way to allow the pipeline to pass through different groups and parts of Libya.

If you would like, I would be very happy to provide further information to you later on that particular project.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

The fact is that this water comes from a water table that goes back to a glacial period from millions of years ago. It could provide water to Libya for hundreds of years. According to Gadhafi's plan, that water would have been used for intensive agricultural production. It would then have been used up in 15 or 20 years. That is what I know about this. It could be one issue.

[Barbara Martin]

I am not in a position to provide you with details on that project. I could perhaps send you that information in writing.

[Marc-André Morin, NDP, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Soon. Very well.

[Barbara Martin]

Yes. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

To our witnesses, I want to thank DND, DFAIT, and CIDA for being here today.

I'm going to suspend the meeting so we can go in camera and get ready to discuss some future business.

Once again to our witnesses, thank you very much for taking time to be here this morning.

[Proceedings continue in camera]