Evidence of meeting #4 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was libya.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Barbara Martin  Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Craig King  Director General, Operations, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence
Marie Gervais-Vidricaire  Director General, Stabilization and Reconstruction Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Leslie Norton  Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance Directorate, Canadian International Development Agency
Vincent LePape  Director, North Africa and Middle East, Canadian International Development Agency
Robin Holman  Assistant Deputy Judge Avocate General, Operations, Department of National Defence

9:30 a.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Barbara Martin

We noticed the announcement by the Turkish airlines flight as well. Indeed, Turkish Airways announced a resumption of their service to Libya. In actual fact, they posted a great number of flights, the majority of which were cancelled in the end. It is a good sign that they were able to send in one airplane; however, in a conversation I had with the field yesterday, there is still the general sense that the airports are not yet safe for commercial aircraft. They're working rapidly to change that circumstance.

The other point that's quite relevant is that conditions across Libya vary from place to place and region to region on where it might be safe for people to go if they have essential business in Libya. It might be true of some places but not all places. About a week ago we revised our travel advisory. It had said that Canadians should avoid all travel to Libya and should leave if they are able to. The revision advised against all travel except for Tripoli and the Benghazi area, for which we advise against non-essential travel. It is a slight easing of that travel restriction that very much reflects the increased stability in Tripoli and the Benghazi area. This is consistent with what a number of our key allies are also doing and recommending to their citizens.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you very much for that update.

In your opening remarks you mentioned four areas of potential assistance by Canada to Libya. Two of those areas were security and the rule of law, and human rights and the role of women. Could you elaborate a little for us on what you envision Canada's role to be in each of those areas? What kinds of programs can we provide that will benefit Libya?

9:30 a.m.

Director General, Stabilization and Reconstruction Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Marie Gervais-Vidricaire

Again, we will see what the exact needs are. For example, if there is a need for police training, we have the Canadian police arrangement that allows us to deploy some police officers. We could do it in Libya if there's a need. That would be a very concrete and practical contribution. We will see, in coordination with the UN and our partners, what needs to be done and who is best placed to do it.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Regarding human rights and the role of women, what do you envision?

9:30 a.m.

Director General, Stabilization and Reconstruction Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Marie Gervais-Vidricaire

It would be capacity-building, reinforcement, or creation of institutions that can help protect human rights. Media training at some point will also be important, especially in the lead-up to an eventual election. There are a number of areas where capacity-building and training would be the thing to do.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you.

In our last meeting on the mission in Libya, there was some discussion about the role that other countries in the region are playing in the transition. Mrs. Martin, could you update us on what other regional neighbours are contributing to the situation in Libya?

9:30 a.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Barbara Martin

Thank you.

Of course, the region itself is undergoing a massive transition. Tunisia was the country where the whole Arab awakening, as we now like to call it, began. Tunisia itself, of course, is working toward the development of a constituent assembly to determine its own constitution as it looks forward. Elections to that assembly will take place later this month.

Egypt, its neighbour on the other side, is also undergoing a massive reform program, a social upheaval that resulted in the removal of President Mubarak and now his trial for the acts he committed. The process there is progressing, I would say, with a few bumps in the road, as frankly could be expected. We experienced the same thing with countries in eastern Europe. It takes a long time to actually rebuild a new institutional and democratic culture within countries undergoing this sort of transition.

Algeria, which hasn't undergone as dramatic a reform process as have others, is nonetheless looking at a certain level of reform within its own environment.

Those are the countries that border Libya on the horizontal plane. Basically, their contributions are in the sense that they too are undergoing these processes, from the deposition of the existing regime to the rebuilding of a new country.

The countries to the south--Chad, Niger, and Sudan--are Saharan countries predominantly, and they have challenges of their own. No doubt you've read reports of members of the Gadhafi family who may have fled across the border into Niger, and the Nigerians seem to be mindful of obligations with respect to the International Criminal Court among others in their management of that. That too is a contribution to this overall effort.

As I said in my opening remarks, Moammar Gadhafi remains at large. We don't know where he is. We don't know what his influence is, and we suspect he has considerable resources at his disposal. There remains a huge question as to where he may attempt to flee to and what assistance might be given by those neighbours.

To my knowledge, Chad hasn't had a major engagement in this process at all. Of course Sudan faces enormous challenges of its own with its recent separation into two countries. It has also experienced an increase in fighting.

In summation, I think the major contribution is that these are all countries facing common challenges from similar but not identical situations, and no doubt there is a degree of comparing of notes.

I would say there are two international processes under way. One is the Deauville Partnership, which was launched by the French presidency at their summit in Deauville and at a meeting held in Paris of that body called the Friends of Libya. A subsequent meeting was held in New York to look at how countries could assist these countries. They are all members of this partnership, so in that sense they engage as equals in a discussion on the way forward.

The second process is the broader Middle East and North Africa initiative, which is managed under the G-8 process.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Do I have more time?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

No, you took the next part of your time as well.

We're going to move to Ms. Sims for five minutes.

October 4th, 2011 / 9:35 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you very much.

I really want to thank you for the information. I'm hearing very clearly that we're waiting for a strategic assessment to see what else we can do to help in the way of humanitarian aid.

Right now, according to the Red Cross, we have a very dire situation in Sirte and some of the other areas where hospitals don't have the necessary medication and don't have oxygen, and even though the Red Cross has been able to get through, carrying oxygen is dangerous, as far as I know.

I know we're engaged in getting some control on the military side to take over the two cities, which I suppose is a nice way of putting it. So what are we doing right now to address the very difficult humanitarian situation in some of these regions, especially in Sirte and the other military target for now?

I know we're doing one, so I need some information on what we're doing on the humanitarian side.

9:35 a.m.

Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance Directorate, Canadian International Development Agency

Leslie Norton

Thank you for your question.

It's difficult to deliver humanitarian assistance when bombs are dropping. That's something we are concerned about—the safety and security of humanitarian workers. They can move in only when the active conflict has stopped.

The ICRC made one foray into Sirte on October 1, and they were able to undertake a quick assessment. I understand Médecins Sans Frontières, or Doctors Without Borders, was also able to witness the situation. They were both reporting casualties, shrinking water supplies, lack of electricity, and lack of food. So, yes, there are definitely humanitarian needs.

Canada funded the ICRC to the tune of over $3 million when the ICRC launched its appeal. They are one of our most important humanitarian partners. We have a core funding relationship with the ICRC, and they will come back to us and to their key donors if and when they require further assistance. But at this time, they haven't appealed for further assistance. That being said, the ICRC is there and is ready once the fighting stops.

Also, the UN, like Canada, is extremely concerned about the protection of civilians in the Bani Walid lead area as well as in Sirte. They have mobilized their humanitarian assistance, food, and medical supplies to the outskirts of both cities to be able to assist anyone able to leave. We understand that up to 40,000 internally displaced people have fled from Bani Walid, and they are being provided with assistance from the UN agencies posted on the outskirts. Unfortunately, it's one of these tough situations where the humanitarian workers want to go in and provide assistance, but they cannot do so when there is active fighting to the degree currently under way.

If it goes on for a long time, the ICRC will be in active discussions with the military with a view to their letting us know when there's a pause. Then we will go in and assist the people who need it. I understand that in the hospital there are casualties and the locals who are there have made folks aware of what the needs are. We are waiting to go in and address those needs.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I appreciate that we don't want to send personnel in when their lives could be in danger. However, has NATO itself, our own forces, considered a ceasefire or a temporary respite so that humanitarian aid could go in? The reports from our own investigations and from what we're hearing are that the needs are very serious.

9:40 a.m.

Director General, Operations, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

BGen Craig King

When the situation on the ground requires a suspension of the NATO effort, the commander who's directing the operation takes that decision, as he has done recently. Also, I would point out that the NTC, the anti-Gaddafi forces, have also put in place measures to pause the fighting to allow some of these activities to occur. As a matter of fact, over the course of the last month in a number of situations in Bani Walid and Sirte, there have been instances where ceasefires have occurred. Negotiations have been undertaken in an effort to resolve the situation with the least amount of suffering to the civilian population and the combatants. But as we've seen only too clearly, those efforts have not borne the fruit we expected to see. So it is a difficult environment. Measures have been taken, both on the NATO side and on the NTC side, to create the circumstances where humanitarian intervention can occur.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Back over to the Conservatives and Mr. Dechert.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Ms. Martin, could you give us an update on the state of the Libyan economy? Is oil being exported? Is revenue flowing in? Where do you see the economy going over the next few months?

9:45 a.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Barbara Martin

I will preface my remarks with the fact that we have relatively little information on the state of the Libyan economy writ large. The IMF and the World Bank are doing some assessments, and those reports are going to be available imminently and will probably give us some information.

That said, we do know that oil production, which is the foundation of the Libyan economy, is progressively being restored. It's down to about a third of what the production levels were prior to the revolution. It is anticipated that it will take approximately a year to restore this oil production to previous levels.

The other sense we have of the Libyan economy is more anecdotal than analytical. It is based on the perceptions of the team we currently have in Libya. They are seeing activity. They are seeing goods flooding back into the shops and are seeing families shopping. The lines to get fuel are apparently the equivalent of the lines to get gas at the beginning of a long weekend in Canada. You can see confidence coming back.

Businesses, however, do need to get supply lines back into operation. The limitation on commercial transportation in and out of the country is still a constraint. There are land routes with Tunisia. The border with Tunisia opened about three or four weeks ago, which has allowed a tremendous number of goods to come into the country. It is a progressive situation.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

You said that oil production is about one-third of the pre-revolution situation. Is that because infrastructure that has been destroyed needs to be replaced? Is there an opportunity for Canadian companies to participate in the reconstruction of those facilities?

9:45 a.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Barbara Martin

There is very limited damage to the infrastructure of the oil sector, and that damage is in the process of being repaired. That was one impact. The others are the supply links and the import and export ban on the movement of goods in and out of Libya. There is a process under way to lift the sanctions on Libya to allow the movement of goods back and forth. I believe that we will see a progressive increase as we go forward.

A number of Canadian companies were already engaged in the Libyan oil sector. They have expressed an interest in going back in. There are some potential newcomers among Canadian companies. We are providing information to them to see where they might be able to play a role going forward, not only in the oil sector but in other sectors of the Libyan economy.

It's not reconstruction as we knew it in the Balkans, where there had been extensive bombing and extensive bombing of civilian infrastructure. Most of the infrastructure is intact. It's responding to the ongoing development needs that had preceded this situation.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

There is one further comment. Go ahead, Mrs. Gervais-Vidricaire.

9:45 a.m.

Director General, Stabilization and Reconstruction Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Marie Gervais-Vidricaire

I would like to add one point. Since last week we have had a Canadian lawyer at our embassy. His mission is a temporary mission to look at the legal environment for Canadian business, and business in general, with a view to providing advice to Canadian businesses on how they can reintegrate into the market, and for those Canadian companies that had contracts, on how they can be assured that the contracts will be respected.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

I'm going to wrap up your time.

The next round starts with Mr. Goldring. We're going to start the clock again for five minutes.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Thank you very much.

Thank you for appearing here today in town. Certainly, first and foremost, I would have to say a big congratulations to our military for a first-rate effort. It's marvellous to see how well represented Canada is on the world stage in dealing with scenarios such as this. It does our country very proud.

To comment on that, I have to say that this would be the first official action the Royal Canadian Air Force has had on the international military stage since perhaps the war in Korea. Would that be fair to say?

9:50 a.m.

Director General, Operations, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

BGen Craig King

Well, sir, you'll recall we were involved in Kosovo as well.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

The Royal Canadian Air Force.

9:50 a.m.

Director General, Operations, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

BGen Craig King

The Royal Canadian Air Force--absolutely, sir.