Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 16th, 2012

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

In three minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay.

[Mark Bailey]

I'll let my colleague respond.

[Leslie Norton]

I would say at this time we have not funded UNICEF for these activities. I should have clarified that. As the camps are opened, UNHCR provides all of the assistance and protection for the refugees. As the situation settles more, they will bring in partners, like UNICEF, to provide the water and sanitation elements. But in the meantime, the medical needs are being met by UNHCR in this context.

Inside Syria itself, it is the Syrian Arab Red Crescent that is trying to meet the water and sanitation needs, as well as the medical needs of our partners. You can ask more from the Canadian Red Cross when they come in after our session. The other partners, like the UN agencies, are also becoming more and more active in Syria in places where it's calm and they can work effectively. They are trying to meet these needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You have two minutes now.

[Mark Bailey]

Well, it's very difficult to respond to your question, sir, without in fact venturing into controversy. In this part of the world, even the kinds of words one uses to describe problems can get you into difficulties, because they betray what some might allege are biases in your approach. All I can do is give you my own personal take on this.

I guess what I would say is that you have to start, frankly, with the peace settlements that were made after the First World War—the Treaty of Versailles, and the Lausanne treaty, which made peace with the Ottoman Empire—and the way those territories that had previously been part of the Ottoman Empire were divided up into mandates along lines that corresponded to the interests of the victorious powers in World War I but not necessarily to the human geography of the region itself at the time.

That kind of set the region up, as it were, for difficulties over time, and now, as time has gone on, and as various things have happened through the course of history, notably the Second World War, which was obviously a major event in the region's life, and then subsequent events, notably the overthrow of the shah in Iran and similar kinds of things.... I mean, the problems have gotten worse rather than better, to be perfectly honest.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you. That's all the time we have.

To the committee, we have only one witness coming in for the next hour. Would you like an additional round? Or how would you like to do this?

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

All right.

Why don't we just have one more question from the Conservatives and one more from the NDP, if we want one round each.

Is that okay if we could just keep you an extra five or ten minutes? Okay.

We'll move into the next round, with one from the Conservatives and one from the NDP.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Dechert, and then we'll come back over here to finish up.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate this opportunity.

Mr. Bailey, you mentioned that neither side is really willing to negotiate with the UN special envoy because they both think that it's the intention of their opposition to annihilate them.

You mentioned that the Assad regime continues to have a cache of military weapons. Are they being resupplied, and if so, by whom? What can be done to prevent them from being resupplied?

I understand that recently Turkey was successful in stopping at least one shipment of military supplies to the Assad regime. Can you tell us about Canada's reaction to that incident, and what was said to Turkey?

Just tell us a little bit more about who is supplying the Assad regime and what we can do to stop it.

[Mark Bailey]

I'll make just one very small remark: both sides have been willing to meet with the UN special envoy—both Mr. Annan and Mr. Brahimi—but what they aren't willing to do is negotiate with the other side, either directly or through him. But they are willing to meet with him. I just wanted to make that absolutely clear.

Yes, the regime is being resupplied. It is being resupplied, to the best of our knowledge, by Russia and Iran. Indeed, you're absolutely right that the Turks recently intercepted a Syrian Arab Airlines civilian aircraft overflying Turkey on its way back to Damascus from Moscow. They had information that led them to believe this aircraft was carrying equipment or weapons related to the war effort.

When they inspected the aircraft, they did indeed find such material, which they proceeded to unload and impound.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

What exactly was on that aircraft?

[Mark Bailey]

The information that is available to me indicates that it was components related to the radar system that you use to control an air defence system. It was addressed to the Syrian ministry of defence. As I say, Turkey undertook that action.

They also, by the way, recently stopped an Armenian overflight. Apparently on that Armenian flight they didn't find anything, so it was allowed to proceed and carry on its way to Aleppo.

Canada naturally, as you can imagine, strongly approved this action by the Turkish authorities. Indeed, Minister Baird put out a statement to that effect, approving their action and calling on the Russians and others to cease trying to resupply the Syrian armed forces.

We've also called on Iraq to do the same. The Iraqis have indicated that they are at least doing spot checks of overflights of their territory by Iranian aircraft.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Do you have any further questions? You have two minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I'd like to explore the United Nations process a little more. What can be done by the rest of the world—other than Russia and China—to try to push that process forward? Can anything be done in the absence of the UN Security Council bringing forward sanctions?

[Mark Bailey]

In the absence of the UN Security Council agreement to adopt measures, frankly, all that can be done is the kind of moral pressure that we saw in the General Assembly resolution that was adopted a few weeks ago—I forget the date of it—calling on the regime to change its ways and start getting much more serious about engaging with the opposition and finding a political solution.

When it's not backed up with sanctions or an arms embargo or other measures like that, it remains just an exhortation. That's why this process, the Friends of the Syrian People, has been set up by countries who were determined to not just stand back, arms crossed, and say they couldn't do anything; the Russians were blocking them.

This Friends of the Syrian People process, in which Canada has been participating actively, is the substitute for UN action mandated by the Security Council. It has succeeded in bringing in quite severe sanctions adopted by a number of countries: the Arab League countries, the European Union countries, Canada, the U.S., and others. There is that pressure, but as Syria's main friends, Russia and Iran, continue to resupply and support the regime, it's obviously not 100% effective.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Can I ask you just quickly about crimes against humanity?

You mentioned some were being perpetrated. Some documentation is going on with respect to those incidents, and some are obviously being perpetrated by the Assad regime, but some incidents may be being perpetrated by others. Can you give us a sample of that?

[Mark Bailey]

The regime's actions caught everyone's attention, but that's one we know about. There is reason to believe that other such actions have taken place, but of course because the international media is not given access, not allowed into the country, not able to move around freely, the suspicion has to be that other such action by the shabiha militia or even by the regular forces of the regime has taken place.

On the rebel side, there are reliable reports of executions. I don't know if any of you were watching 60 Minutes the other night. They showed a video of an execution of captured soldiers by a militia force. They were made to kneel on the ground and then machine-gunned. That would, I think, probably constitute a war crime. I'm not an expert, but it would be my assumption that it is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dewar, you have five minutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

One of the questions people are seized with right now is how you get the resources to those who need them. There have been reflections on a humanitarian corridor or other methods.

I'm curious as to the areas we're able to get our aid to. Are they simply around the borders? Is there any presence within Syria whereby we're able to get our aid directly to people? You mentioned, and maybe the following witnesses will elaborate.... Is there any knowledge of a method by which we can get that aid directly within the country, and particularly of course to women and children?

[Mark Bailey]

You've put your finger on a very significant problem. I'll let Leslie talk a little about the work they're doing and maybe add a comment or two at the end.

[Leslie Norton]

The challenge here, of course, is the actors in-country who can effectively access those in need. You've put your finger right on it. That is why the majority of our partners are using the Syrian Arab Red Crescent as the key actor in-country, because they're essentially local folks who are running either branch or sub-branch level offices, and they have access on all sides of the conflict, or on both sides of the conflict, depending obviously on the location of the branch or sub-branch office.

The World Food Programme is predominantly using SARC, the Syrian Arab Red Crescent, as is the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, and the ICRC. That really is the partner that has the key access. With the revision of the UN appeal for Syria, they are working on increasing their level of presence within the country itself. Within that context, not only are they scaling up their presence, but we also understand at this time that their presence is maintained through 11 agencies in seven offices located across the country. A number of international and non-governmental organizations have also appealed, within the context of this UN appeal, and they include Action Contre la Faim, the Danish Refugee Council, an organization called HELP, and a whole lot of members of the international medical corps. I would say there is a range of partners who have claimed access at this time to certain spots across the country.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Moving to you, Mr. Bailey, with regard to our help in supporting governance of post-conflict Syria—and I appreciate your comments earlier about not scooping your minister—what capacity do we have as a country to help in that area? It's absolutely critical that we do this. We've seen this in other scenarios, in Libya right now, for instance. The key is that the war is going to end at some point. In some ways that's the easy part. As horrific as it is right now, it's about what happens after. What tools and capacity do we have to help post-conflict? Is it through START, or what resources within the department could be exercised?

[Mark Bailey]

You're quite right: START would be one. The International Development Research Centre is also right now funding a project that tries to bring together various members of the opposition to start thinking about these very issues of governance and constitution-writing, and about what kinds of economic policies and institutions we will need as we go about rebuilding a country and a Syrian state in the post-Assad era. In fact, they've been doing some work on it already. I agreed just yesterday in fact to send some of our staff to attend a gathering with these Syrian oppositionists in Istanbul a bit later this month.

So yes, we have some tools to deal with this. Others are doing the same thing. All kinds of people are worrying about this topic. As I said, it's way up the list of priorities for the Friends of the Syrian People as well. A lot of work is under way, and Canada is participating in it.