Evidence of meeting #51 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was river.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Larry Miller  Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, CPC
Peter Julian  Burnaby—New Westminster, NDP
Adèle Hurley  Director, Program on Water Issues, University of Toronto, Munk School of Global Affairs
J. Owen Saunders  Senior Fellow and Adjunct Professor, Canadian Institute of Ressources Law, University of Calgary
Steven Renzetti  Brock University, As an Individual

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Okay. Thanks.

Obviously, since that bill falls under the purview of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, that's why this bill is before this particular committee.

Mr. Miller, I just want to wrap up by commending you. All the citizens and residents of the Peel region, where I live and where the riding I represent is situated, derive all the domestic water they use from Lake Ontario. It all comes through the system.

It's a greatly expanding region, as you know, so we've had to expand our water supply system in recent years, but we're using it in a conservative and environmentally friendly way. It all goes back into Lake Ontario eventually and gets reused. Protecting that water is very important for the people in my region, so I want to thank you very much for bringing this bill forward to Parliament.

9:40 a.m.

Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, CPC

Larry Miller

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me here today.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Do you have any final comments?

9:40 a.m.

Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, CPC

Larry Miller

No, my intention here was to improve a situation. I think I've done that.

Some may view it as not being perfect, but again, I don't think there are many of us who are perfect. I do think it's as close to perfect as we can get, and all I can do is say that I hope I get the committee's support at the end of the day and, eventually, the support in Parliament.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you.

Did you want to mention carbon tax?

9:40 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

No, I'm just teasing.

Thank you, Mr. Miller, for being here. With that, I'm going to suspend the meeting as we get set up for our next witnesses. The meeting is suspended until we're ready.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

If we could get all the members back to the table, we'll get started.

I want to welcome our witnesses here today.

Thank you for taking the time to be with us on such short notice. When we met last Tuesday, we hadn't had all of our witnesses confirmed, so that means you've rearranged your schedules to be here for us. Thank you very much for that.

We have with us Adèle Hurley, director of the program on water issues, University of Toronto, the Munk School of Global Affairs. Ms. Hurley, welcome.

We also have, from the University of Calgary, J. Owen Saunders, senior fellow and adjunct professor for the Canadian Institute of Resources Law. Welcome, Mr. Saunders.

Joining us via video conference from my area of the country is Mr. Steven Renzetti, who is a professor at Brock University. Mr. Renzetti, thank you very much for being here.

What we'll do is start in the order in which we've introduced everybody.

You have up to 10 minutes for your opening statements. We'll start with Ms. Hurley and work our way around to finish with Mr. Renzetti.

Ms. Hurley, we welcome you and turn the floor over to you.

9:45 a.m.

Adèle Hurley Director, Program on Water Issues, University of Toronto, Munk School of Global Affairs

Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to be with you today.

I am the director of the program on water issues at the Munk School of Global Affairs at the University of Toronto. With me today are my colleagues, Owen Saunders and Frank Quinn. We are here on behalf of the Canadian Water Issues Council, or CWIC, as we like to call it.

CWIC is a project of the program on water issues at the Munk School of Global Affairs at the University of Toronto. It comprises Canadian water experts and former senior water policy-makers. It was formed in 2007 to conduct non-partisan policy research within a university setting on the topic of Canada-United States transboundary water issues. Biographies for the three of us who are here today, as well as for the other members of the Canadian Water Issues Council, form part of this record.

Our objective has been to be a resource for all parties that demonstrate goodwill and cooperation in accomplishing the goal of protecting Canada’s water. For example, over the years we have had opportunities to work with Francis Scarpaleggia and Lawrence Cannon on their bills, and we have had the opportunity to speak with Larry Miller on his bill. We welcome and acknowledge the spirit of cooperation that has characterized these efforts to date.

I would like to turn to my colleague, Owen Saunders, who has been our legal expert over the years, for his remarks.

9:50 a.m.

J. Owen Saunders Senior Fellow and Adjunct Professor, Canadian Institute of Ressources Law, University of Calgary

Good morning. I would like to begin by echoing Adèle's thanks to the committee for the opportunity to be with you this morning.

My remarks today reflect the long-standing interest that CWIC has had in the issue of interbasin removals of water generally, and water exports more specifically. Over four years ago, CWIC developed a model act for preserving Canada’s waters with a view to stimulating debate on this very subject. While the model act suggested one approach to foreclosing the possibility of water exports, we recognized there were other possible legislative avenues for addressing the issue. Regardless of the particular approach, however, there is no doubt about how Canadians feel about the ultimate goal. Canadians have been consistent and firm in their insistence that they do not want to see their endowment of water put at risk through interbasin transfers in the name of chasing, at best, doubtful economic gains.

In this respect, while Bill C-383, the transboundary waters protection act, takes a somewhat different approach than that suggested in CWIC's model act, it nevertheless achieves the same goals that CWIC has been pursuing for several years.

As members of this committee are no doubt aware, the issue of water exports has arisen on a number of occasions over the past five decades, beginning with a series of proposed megaprojects in the 1960s, and then emerging again, first in the context of trade negotiations in the 1980s and 1990s, and subsequently as the result of an abortive private sector proposal to export water by tanker from the Great Lakes. This proposal led to an amendment to the International Boundary Waters Treaty Act in 2002 and the issuance of a joint reference, the water uses reference, by Canada and the United States to the International Joint Commission.

In the 2002 amendments, the government addressed only one potential threat to Canada’s waters by prohibiting, with certain limited exceptions, the interbasin removal of boundary waters, that is, those waters through which the international boundary runs, for example, the Great Lakes. It did not address the potential threat of water export by means of transboundary waters, that is, principally rivers that cross the boundary. While this approach had the constitutional advantage of fitting squarely within the empire treaties clause of the Constitution, it also had the obvious disadvantage of leaving unprotected important potential pathways for water export. It was in light of this legislative deficiency that CWIC took on the task of encouraging debate on a more ambitious approach toward limiting the possibility of water exports.

Subsequent to its throne speech undertakings of 2008 and 2009, the federal government did indeed bring forward its own legislative initiative on water exports in the spring of 2010 with the introduction by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Bill C-26, which eventually died on the order paper with the calling of a federal election. CWIC had the opportunity to comment on that bill in a letter to the minister. While we in general supported the intent of the bill, our view was that it did not go far enough in precluding bulk removals and, in particular, those proposals for bulk removal that were the most likely to be brought forward.

We therefore welcome the current bill, Bill C-383, which, in our view, while building on Bill C-26, goes beyond it in a crucial respect through its amendment to the International River Improvements Act and, in particular, through the addition of proposed subsection 13(1), which would prohibit the issuance of a licence under the act for any international river improvement linking non-boundary or boundary waters to an international river, the purpose of which would be to increase its annual flow. Especially in light of the broad definitions of “international river” and “international river improvement” in the legislation, this seems to us to accomplish the task of truly precluding the use of transboundary rivers as a vehicle for carrying out the export of water.

CWIC recognizes that Bill C-383 will not address all the concerns that have been raised by some Canadians with respect to the export of water. For example, potential marine tankers from coastal lakes and rivers would not be covered. Similarly, there would continue to be statutory exceptions that permit the export of manufactured products containing water, including bottled water or other beverages. However, while we do not preclude other legislative initiatives, apart from existing provincial legislation, to address this possibility, we also recognize that neither the International Boundary Waters Treaty Act nor the International River Improvements Act is likely to be the appropriate vehicle for such measures.

In sum, based on our research, the Canadian Water Issues Council acknowledges that the goal of protecting Canada's water resources from bulk export is significantly accomplished by way of this proposed legislation. We are particularly pleased to see the level of cross-partisan support it seems to have achieved to date.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much, Mr. Saunders.

We'll now move to Mr. Renzetti, who is from the Department of Economics. He is the scientific director of the Water Economics, Policy and Governance Network.

Mr. Renzetti, the floor is yours, sir.

October 25th, 2012 / 9:55 a.m.

Professor Steven Renzetti Brock University, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and other members of the committee.

Let me begin by thanking you for the opportunity to address the committee, remotely, on this important topic.

As you have indicated, I am a professor of economics here at Brock University, and also director of a recently formed research network which is specifically aimed at improving water governance.

For the last 20 years or so, the bulk of my research has been concerned with the economics of water resources, so I very much appreciate the opportunity to discuss this bill before your committee.

The first point I'd like to make is that in some respects, a ban on the export of a natural resource is, to a degree, an unusual step for the government to take. Successive federal and provincial governments have actively promoted the export of both our renewable and non-renewable resources, so a ban on water exports, whatever its emotional appeal, stands in contrast to many perceived government policies. Then why impose a ban? One can imagine at least three arguments being made to support a ban.

First, we want to avoid an irreversible mistake; that is, if we were to allow bulk exports today, that would somehow prevent us from curtailing these exports at some point in the future. This is largely a matter of international and trade law, and I would defer to Professor Saunders on this point.

Second, there may be significant uncertainty about future economic and environmental conditions, and as a result we collectively believe we should be very cautious in the face of that future uncertainty. That's a perfectly reasonable argument, but if it were the case, presumably it would apply to all our natural resource exports, and we would want to think about applying the same type of logic to those.

Third and finally, it could be argued that Canadians assign such immense value to their water that they are unwilling to countenance its export in bulk form. The difficulty with this argument is that Canadians are remarkably profligate in their use of water, thereby suggesting, at least to outsiders, that we may assign relatively little value to preserving it. Indeed, as a result of years of underpricing at the municipal level, and also assigning provincial permits to take water with little or no scrutiny of the wisdom of those uses, Canada is now in the unenviable position of having perhaps the highest per capita water use in the world, and if not, perhaps the second highest.

Furthermore, Canadians and Canadian governments know almost nothing about the value of water as it's used by industry, farms, and households. We have fragmentary knowledge of how water is used and how water contributes value to our society and to our economy. This is particularly true of water's role in providing what are frequently referred to as ecological goods and services, whose values are not captured in the marketplace.

Thus, it's not really clear that there is an economic rationale for such a ban. For all the concern regarding bulk water exports, the fundamental economics suggest that these are very unlikely to occur, even in the absence of a ban. Water has a low value relative to its mass and this means that it is difficult and not cheap to transport over great distances.

If some entrepreneur were to somehow secure a supply of Canadian water and seek to sell it in the United States, she would likely find that there would be a surprising amount of competition from U.S. water sources. In order to see this, it's important to remember that it's not so much that America is short of water, but rather that America is experiencing localized shortages, largely brought on by decades of poor water management. In many areas where water is considered in short supply, such as the American southwest, large volumes of water are still irrigating very low-value crops.

If an entrepreneur tried to sell Canadian water for some dollar amount that was sufficient to cover her cost of transportation and a reasonable rate of return, she would find that local farmers who hold licences to water would be more than happy to sell or lease their water rights at a fraction of the price, so it's hard to see that this could be a viable commercial activity.

I should also point out that the argument I've just made regarding the lack of commercial viability of bulk water exports was made as many as 20 years ago in a report that I co-authored for the Macdonald commission.

If Canada wants to ban bulk water exports, that ban should be comprehensive. It's our water and we can choose to do with it as we see fit. But let's not think that doing so is a substitute for a comprehensive and sound national water strategy, nor for the need to maintain the institutional capacity to measure and document the state of our water resources, to manage water resources in an integrated fashion, and to use those resources in a way that fully benefits all Canadians.

The absence of a sound national water strategy is, in my mind, a far greater impediment to maximizing water's potential contribution to Canada's well-being than is the possibility of future bulk water exports. There are many pressing issues relating to water use that need to be addressed, whether the issue be the threats to groundwater from hydrocarbon extraction, the state of our municipal water supply and sewage treatment facilities, or the very serious threats to first nations communities due to inadequate water supplies.

Let me conclude by saying that I applaud members for their concerns regarding Canada's water resources. Furthermore, if Canadians have signalled that they truly do not want bulk water exports, then the House is right to act. However, once the deliberations regarding this bill have concluded, I would hope that the members would direct their attention to the continuing and very real challenges facing water resources in Canada today.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much as well.

We're going to start with the opposition. Mr. Dewar, you have seven minutes, please.

10 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests. I particularly appreciated, Mr. Renzetti, your approach to the issue. We on this side have been asking for a water strategy, to seize the day and be comprehensive on the issue.

We are supportive of the legislation. In fact, my former colleague, Mr. Blaikie, in 1999 talked about the importance of this issue and about making sure that we protect our resource for the reasons that you mentioned.

I'm going to come back to you in a second, but I want to go to our guests who are with us here in Ottawa.

Mr. Saunders, you were comprehensive and detailed in your overview, and I thank you. You suggested there are other things that can be done to protect our water and that other legislation may need to be considered for amendment. Could you build on that a bit?

If you have ideas for amendments to this particular legislation, we would welcome them.

10 a.m.

Senior Fellow and Adjunct Professor, Canadian Institute of Ressources Law, University of Calgary

J. Owen Saunders

It's not so much in terms of amendments, but that there is a different approach. We have suggested a different approach in the model act that I talked about. It is oriented to interbasin removals generally and is focused on basins rather than on international boundaries.

One of the reasons we did that is the concern that was expressed by some Canadians, but not all, that a simple ban on bulk removals would incur NAFTA problems. We set ourselves the task of building a model that would essentially be NAFTA-proof.

However, there is an alternative view, and I think it is one shared by this government and perhaps also the previous one, that bulk removals do not fall within the trade provisions of NAFTA. They would still fit within the investment provisions. That reflects why the bill you have is more straightforward, in a sense, and uses the boundary rather than focusing on watersheds.

That, in brief, is what I was talking about.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you.

The concern that has been raised this morning, which my colleague Mr. Tilson touched on, is the way in which water can be taken and then transported. This is something many people are seized with now, essentially because of the demand and the ways in which we now use water.

What do you see as a way to deal with that? As Mr. Tilson pointed out, there are areas where there are massive amounts of fresh water that are outside of the purview of this bill; water that could theoretically be taken, put onto trains, in an example that was used earlier, and shipped across the borders, and then maybe onto boats.

How would you deal with that conundrum?

10:05 a.m.

Senior Fellow and Adjunct Professor, Canadian Institute of Ressources Law, University of Calgary

J. Owen Saunders

I would have thought the economics of rail transport would be unlikely to make that the most obvious mode. The most likely mode, and it has been the subject of some proposals, is marine tankers—the Friel Lake example in B.C.—in which you get close to a coastal lake, load up the tanker, and send it south. Alaska has been trying to sell its water that way for a couple of decades. I don't think it has had any buyers.

I'm not speaking as an economist, obviously, but from what I've seen there is probably not a saleable option right now. It may be that in the future there will be, especially if you are talking about large bags of water, for example, such as they have used in the Mediterranean.

I guess our view on this is that there certainly could be legislation dealing with it. There's no reason that you couldn't do it. I mentioned that in my concluding comments. This particular bill, however, deals with two existing acts of Parliament. It doesn't seem that either of those acts would be the appropriate vehicle for this, and you'd need a new bill. We haven't taken a stance one way or the other on the potential for using this method, but it would certainly be fairly straightforward, if you accept the idea that you can do it.

There is one problem that I should mention. If you're talking about tanker exports, for example, I think you're much more likely to raise NAFTA problems, and so it's different in that sense in that the way you move the water has some importance. If you're talking about tanker exports, you have essentially captured the water, so there's a much greater argument that you are now dealing with a good. I think it would be hard to deny that this would come within the purview of NAFTA and would thus generate the NAFTA disciplines in a way that this sort of legislation arguably would not. There is less of a case to be made that this qualifies as goods.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I'm glad you touched on that, because when NAFTA was drafted, people had concerns, and there were assurances from government that they'd protect our water. A lot has changed since then, certainly when we see the demand for bottled water.

One of the concerns we have in the bill is that there is no definition on limiting of containers. Have you shared the same concerns? Do you have concerns around that?

10:05 a.m.

Senior Fellow and Adjunct Professor, Canadian Institute of Ressources Law, University of Calgary

J. Owen Saunders

I think it's fair to say there is a fair bit of trade both ways in bottled water, but if you look at the actual volume we're talking about, it's in terms of swimming pools rather than something really significant. That was probably one of the reasons we didn't address it.

Of course, bottled water again would directly raise the issue of NAFTA disciplines. You really would have to do a trade fix. When NAFTA was passed, and before that the free trade agreement, and water was an issue—I was involved in some of those debates—no one questioned that bottled water came within NAFTA. Indeed, I don't think anyone seriously questioned that tankers came within NAFTA. The argument made was that this other type of bulk removal did not come within NAFTA, and that was really the subject of the debate.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to the government side. We'll start off with Mr. Dechert.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to share my time with Mr. Van Kesteren.

I just have one question for you, Mr. Saunders.

In your opening comments you mentioned that you weren't sure that potential marine tanker exports from coastal lakes and rivers would not be covered.

I'm having a hard time understanding that, because the definition of bulk removal prohibits any bulk removal “by any means” of water amounting to more than 50,000 litres per day. The exception is for manufactured products.

10:10 a.m.

Senior Fellow and Adjunct Professor, Canadian Institute of Ressources Law, University of Calgary

J. Owen Saunders

I think you are talking there, sir, about the amendments for the boundary waters legislation.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

That's right.

10:10 a.m.

Senior Fellow and Adjunct Professor, Canadian Institute of Ressources Law, University of Calgary

J. Owen Saunders

There wouldn't be any boundary waters on the coast that would be relevant.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

You are talking about non-boundary waters.