Foreign Affairs Committee on May 7th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Good morning. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying the situation of Jewish refugees from the Middle Eastern nations.

I want to welcome Shimon Fogel, who is the chief executive officer for the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs. Welcome, sir. I'm glad to have you here today.

By video conference from Budapest, Hungary, we have Gina Waldman, who is the chair of Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa. I understand, Gina, that you also set up the video conference on your own. You've made it easier for us. Thank you for doing that.

We'll get started.

We'll start with you, Shimon, and then we'll go to Gina. We'll do the opening testimony and we'll spend the next hour following up with some questions.

Shimon.

[Shimon Fogel, Chief Executive Officer, Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to begin by thanking the government for taking the unprecedented and essential step of raising this important issue of Jewish refugees from Arab countries here in the foreign affairs committee.

The Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs applauds this committee's efforts. We encourage all of its members to carefully consider the testimony before them and join together in recommending official recognition of the persecution and displacement of over 850,000 Jews from the Middle East and North Africa. Previous witnesses set out the historical facts surrounding this issue. Our focus today will be on the Canadian dimension.

Two refugee populations were created as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict, one Palestinian and the other Jewish. Unfortunately the plight of Jewish refugees has been completely omitted from Canada's Middle East policy, while that of the Palestinians features prominently. It's essential that policy-makers correct this imbalance. Equitable consideration of Jewish refugees from Arab countries is a necessary component for any just and lasting Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement. It's important to note that achieving peace in the Middle East is not a zero-sum game. The rights and claims of one group need not come at the expense of or displace those of the other.

Much of the peace process is about validation, of the legitimacy of Israel as a Jewish state and the recognition of the Palestinians as a people. Redress for Jews displaced from Arab countries is another example of this and needs to be included for true and lasting peace to be achieved.

To be clear, the purpose of incorporating the historic claims of Jewish refugees from Arab countries is not to diminish or compete with the claims of Palestinian refugees. The inclusion of the issue of Jewish refugees is meant to complete, not revise, the historical record. The omission of the experience of Jewish refugees from Arab countries from Canadian foreign policy is all the more baffling given how much was known by the Government of Canada throughout the evolution of their plight.

By March 1949, Canadian diplomats were reporting that many thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing North Africa were pouring into Palestine. Just parenthetically, Canadian archives have all of the cables and documents, which we would be happy to share with any committee members afterwards as the primary text that serves the basis of this presentation.

By March 1952, the Government of Canada received reports that Israel had absorbed over 300,000 Jews from Arab countries, including 120,000 from Iraq and another 50,000 from Yemen.

Following months of requests from one of our predecessor organizations, the Canadian Jewish Congress, the Canadian government decided in August 1956, “in view of the urgent humanitarian considerations involved”, to recommend waiving the normal security procedures and to facilitate the movement of North African Jews to Canada. That resulted in approximately 25,000 Jews coming to Canada from Morocco as part of the mass migration of over 200,000 Jewish Moroccans between 1948 and 1967.

In December 1956, the Department of External Affairs received diplomatic cables describing the expulsion of Egyptian Jewry. Those Jewish Egyptians who did not have a second citizenship and had been rendered stateless by the discriminatory 1926 nationality code, which impacted on approximately 50% of the 75,000 Jews living in Egypt, were faced with a horrific dilemma. The cables to External Affairs reported that Jews without nationality were given a choice between leaving Egypt or being sent to a concentration camp.

Jews would receive a visit by some official who would intimidate them into signing a declaration of intention to leave Egypt, which would then result in a cancellation of residence permits and then force them to leave the country.

In response to these reports, a memorandum to the Minister of External Affairs, sent in December 1956, stated:

What we have in mind is that a sensible principle to accept would be that Jewish refugees wishing to go to Israel should do so and that those not wishing to go to Israel should be accommodated elsewhere in the free world, including Canada.

Six days later, External Affairs received another cable detailing a new emergency concerning the movement of 10,000 Jews from Egypt. The cable notes that Greece had offered asylum to an indefinite number, and that the only international agency involved at the time was the International Red Cross. In February 1957 the UN High Commissioner for Refugees deemed the Egyptian refugees eligible for UN protection.

Canadian cables from elsewhere in the region continued to tell a similar story into the following decade. On May 4, 1964, a memorandum from the Canadian Embassy in Switzerland to the Undersecretary of State of External Affairs spoke of apartheid conditions facing the Jews in Tunisia.

Even as late as March 1973, diplomats were expecting an increase in Jewish immigration to Canada from Morocco, “possibly more rapidly and dramatically than we would wish, as new Moroccan measures are being implemented in the months ahead that will force all those unwanted people to seek a new home”.

Yet despite all of this accumulated evidence, despite the tens of thousands of Jewish refugees from Arab countries who found asylum in Canada, the official policy of successive governments has only recognized the displaced Palestinians. This remains the status quo today.

A quick review of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade's website shows absolutely no reference whatsoever to Jewish refugees from Arab countries. In the section that defines our official policy on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, consideration of Palestinian refugees features prominently, while Jewish refugees are ignored.

The current imbalance in Canadian policy stands in sharp contrast to the leadership role Canada has played on the refugee file since the inception of the Middle East peace process as gavel holder of the multilateral refugee working group. A product of the 1991 Madrid Peace Conference, the working group has served as a complement to bilateral negotiations and a forum for discussing longer term issues and possible contributions from the international community to an effective resolution of the refugee issue. As gavel holder, Canada is uniquely placed to raise the profile of the Jewish refugee issue and to ensure that it is given the fair consideration it merits among all parties engaged in the pursuit of a durable peace.

Official incorporation of the Jewish refugee issue into Canadian foreign policy will signal to the world at this important juncture that Canada is ready to take the lead on this central issue and to foster a comprehensive resolution of all refugee claims.

Again, it's important for me to be absolutely unambiguous: We are not advocating for Palestinian refugee issues to feature less prominently. It is a central issue to resolving the conflict, and of that there's no doubt. However, as things currently stand, Canada's policy regarding Middle East refugees is not equitable and needs to be addressed.

It does not detract from the Palestinian refugee issue one iota to also account for the Jewish refugees and reflect their experience. Quite the opposite is true. By being inclusive, Canada's policy more accurately reflects the full reality of the refugee issue and is better oriented toward the comprehensive, final status peace it is supposed to encourage.

Prime Minister Paul Martin was the first world leader outside of the United States to raise this important issue. In a June 3, 2005 media interview, Martin stated:

A refugee is a refugee, and the situation of Jewish refugees from Arab lands must be recognized. All refugees deserve our consideration as they have lost both physical property and historical connections.

Ladies and gentlemen, the study you're undertaking is a groundbreaking initiative that, while worthy of applause, will only represent a meaningful initiative if it leads to a formal recognition of Jewish refugees in Canada's foreign policy. If we're serious about resolving the refugee issue in the Middle East, we must be true to our own values and enshrine in our official policy that a refugee is a refugee, regardless of ethnic or religious background.

Mr. Chair, thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to turn it over to Ms. Waldman, for 10 minutes.

[Regina Bublil Waldman, President, Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa]

I'd like to express my gratitude to the Canadian committee on foreign affairs and international development for calling this hearing. It is my hope that the current Canadian government will advance the rights of Jews indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa.

I am a Jewish refugee from Libya and the co-founder of JIMENA, Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa, an organization seeking to educate and advocate on behalf of over 850,000 Jewish refugees from the region. Today I would like to share my story, just as I told it to the United States congressional human rights caucus.

I am here to break the silence surrounding the expulsion of nearly one million Jews indigenous to the Middle East. Jews had lived in my native Libya and the rest of the region for over 2,000 years. When I was born in 1948, there were about 36,000 living in Libya; by 1967 there were only 6,000; and today, ladies and gentlemen, my whole community is extinct.

I grew up in a middle-class Jewish community. My father, Rahmin Bublil, imported oil equipment for companies. My father often spoke of the 1945 Mora’ot, a pogrom that took place in Tripoli, when anti-Jewish mobs took to the streets and murdered over 145 Libyan Jews. He buried the severed bodies of his own friends. During the pogrom, my mother escaped the mobs by running from one rooftop to another until a Christian woman saved her life.

When I was born, the Jewish community of Tripoli constituted almost 30% of the total population of the city. My family had lived in Libya for over two millennia, but we were denied citizenship. We were denied basic rights. We were denied the right to travel and to have passports. All of these rights were given to all Libyan Muslims.

The first time I experienced hate and intolerance was in 1954 when I was six years old. I witnessed an arithmetic lesson at the local madrassa school. The teacher turned to the blackboard and said to the little six-year-old Muslim girls, “If you have 10 Jews and you kill five of them, how many Jews do you have left to kill?” I was six years old and completely traumatized. That was a very painful experience for me as a child: my first taste of anti-Jewish hatred.

Our Jewish community was forbidden to the leave the country. We were denied citizenship. We were denied passports. We were denied the right to travel, yet we had to live in this very anti-Jewish environment. In order to cope, we lived in denial and pretended that everything was going to be okay.

On June 6, 1967, the Six Day War broke out between Israel and its five Arab neighbours. I was 19 years old. In Tripoli and Benghazi, mobs took to the streets and shouted, “Edbah el Yehud, Edbah el Yehud”, “slaughter the Jews”. Armed with bottles of gasoline, the mob took to the streets, surrounded Jewish homes and businesses, and burned many of them. Many Jews were killed.

At the time of the riots, I was at work, unable to go home. My British employer hid me in his garage. I was temporarily safe but consumed by fear. While I was in hiding, mobs burned my father’s warehouse and were about to burn my own home when a Muslim neighbour stopped the mob outside, which had already poured gasoline all around the building. This righteous Muslim saved my family's lives. I will be eternally grateful to the honourable and kind Muslim who stood up against evil.

One month after the Six-Day War broke out, I rejoined my family from my hiding place. We were entirely devastated by the relentless rioting, the destruction that befell our ancient and helpless community.

Immediately after I was reunited with my family, the Libyan government ordered the expulsion of all the Jews and the confiscation of all of our property. We were being expelled from the country we had lived in for over 2,000 years. At first, of course, we were delighted to escape from the violence, but then our delight turned into anguish, which grew into fear, anger, and despair. We were being stripped of our property, all of our assets, our homes, and personal belongings. We had no money and no place to go. For days my family and I sat motionless around the kitchen table pondering our future. Where were we going to go? How would we live? We didn't have any money. Which country was going to take us?

A few days later, with one suitcase per person and the equivalent of $25 per person, we boarded a bus to the airport. We were the only passengers. There were seven of us. Halfway to the airport, the driver and the conductor of the bus pulled over to the side of the road, told us there was something wrong with the bus, and one of them left to allegedly get some help.

I followed the conductor to a gas station, where he was using the telephone, and he refused to let me use the phone until I struggled with him physically, and with my hands shaking I was able to call Brian, my guardian angel. I spoke to him in English so that nobody could understand what I was saying. Eventually I said, “Come quickly, we are in mortal danger”, and then I quickly hung up.

When I tried to leave the small office, I found there were three men blocking my way. Again, I struggled with them physically and ran back to the bus. When I arrived at the scene of the bus, I found the driver was standing by a pool of gasoline under the bus. He had siphoned off all the gas from the bus and he was holding a box of matches in his hand. The life of my entire family, seven of us, was locked in that one box of matches.

Eventually, Brian, my British rescuer, and a friend, came to the rescue. They helped us quickly to get in their jeeps and they drove us to the airport, and our lives were spared. I'm standing here today because two brave British Christians saved our lives.

The baggage handlers, when we arrived at the airport, started shouting at us, “Al Yahud Kelabna Arab”, “Jews are the dogs of the Arabs”. They refused to load our bags.

We eventually went to Italy, where we lived penniless and destitute. Seven of us lived in one room, a very small room. Because there was no place to sleep on the floor anymore for the seven of us, my sister and I for two years shared sleeping inside a bathtub. Please don't try it. It's not very comfortable.

We had endured the hardships of discrimination, intolerance, the loss of a 2,000-year community, our culture. We endured human rights abuses only because we were Jewish. The only thing we had left was our dignity. We mourned the loss of our own selves. We felt we had been lost to civilization, lost to the world, lost to history forever.

Despite our oppression, despite our suffering and humiliation, we rose above victimhood. We were victimized, but we never felt as victims. We rose above revenge. We focused on rebuilding our shattered life.

I have personally forgiven the perpetrators who tried to kill my family and me. I believe that hate is a weapon of mass destruction.

My story is not unique. It is the story of nearly one million Jews who were made refugees from nine Arab countries. Six hundred thousand fled to Israel, which became the largest and most successful refugee camp in the Middle East, because it integrated us and gave us dignity and hope. The remaining 300,000 were absorbed in host countries around the world. In all, fully 99% of the Arab world's Jewish inhabitants fled or were expelled from nine Arab countries.

Two years after my expulsion, I came to the United States as a refugee. My Jewish community in San Francisco integrated me. I devoted my life to advocating for human rights all over the world. I never felt like the victim. But you know what is the most painful thing to endure for me? The realization that the United Nations international community inoculated itself with apathy and indifference when it came to our plight. Our losses were ignored by the western world. The expulsion of nearly one million Jews from nine Arab countries had no political consequences.

The fact that these Jewish refugees were forgotten is not just a matter of history. Forgetting nearly one million Jewish refugees from nine Arab countries means that we have a grossly distorted view of the Middle Eastern refugee problem today. It creates political distortions with real relevance to the future of the Middle Eastern peace process. If we want to understand the refugee problem of the Middle East, including the Palestinian refugee problem, and we want to find a fair and just solution, we must take into consideration the plight of nearly one million Jewish refugees. Today, I appeal to you to restore our narrative to its rightful place in history, and to speak forcefully on the discriminatory treatment and the expulsion of the Jews from the Middle East, North Africa, and the Gulf region.

I would like to offer three recommendations to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Recommendation one is that the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development forward a resolution for the consideration of the Canadian House of Commons, similar to the United States House Resolution 185, which resolved the following:

That— for any comprehensive Middle East peace agreement to be credible and enduring, the agreement must address and resolve all outstanding issues relating to the legitimate rights of all refugees, including Jews... ...to use the voice, vote, and influence of the United States to ensure that [in Middle Eastern discussion, any explicit] reference to the required resolution of the Palestinian refugee issue...must also include a similarly explicit reference to the resolution of the issue of Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

A full text of House Resolution 185 can be found online.

Recommendation two is that the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development issue a public statement that hearings were held on the plight and injustices of Jewish, Christian, and other displaced refugees from the Middle East and North Africa. The committee should indicate that it is examining ways to ensure that all Middle Eastern refugees are recognized and dealt with in a fair and balanced manner.

Recommendation three is that I urge Prime Minister Harper to issue a public statement on the need to recognize the plight and legitimate right of all Middle Eastern refugees, including Jewish, Christian, and other populations. I urge Prime Minister Harper to follow in the footsteps of his predecessor, Prime Minister Paul Martin, who publicly recognized the plight of Jews who were displaced from the Middle East.

In closing, may I say how much all of us former Jewish refugees from North Africa, and my organization, JIMENA, Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa, appreciate the way in which Canada is pursuing this issue to ensure equity for all, and that rights and redress should be sought for all Middle Eastern refugees.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much for your testimony.

We're going to start with the opposition.

Mr. Dewar, sir, you have seven minutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses for their testimony today.

I want to start with you, Ms. Waldman. You gave us some shocking testimony as to your own experience, particularly the two stories you told us about the mob attacking the residence where you were staying, as well as the math lesson you were subjected to.

I think these stories are important because they give people a reference point. I've been following the news with regard to what's happening right now in the city you're in, and astonishingly for those who have been following politics in Hungary as of late, we see that the threat of extremism and anti-Semitism, to be very blunt about it, is not gone.

The rallies there on the weekend of the extremist party are not only denying the Holocaust, they are saying extreme things about Jews, about Israel, and about Roma. I was very shocked to see the weekend events and learn from what I have read.

I ask you to give us some context as to the plight right now—and you're in Budapest—if you could share that with us, because our government made a decision recently to take Hungary off the list of countries of concern when it comes to extremism, I would argue. It simply said Hungary would be on a list of safe countries.

Would you conclude right now that Hungary is a safe country for people who are Jewish or Roma?

[Regina Bublil Waldman]

I would say that Canada, having such a wonderful record on human rights.... I would put Hungary as maybe the top anti-Semitic country.

Personally, I was humiliated to be so surrounded by police. The whole city has been blocked by police cars. It took me quite a long time to get here today, simply because I couldn't get in or out of any area that had anything Jewish, whether it's a Jewish neighbourhood or a synagogue.

If the Government of Hungary—and I know this is not related to what we're talking about—cannot come clean with its history.... They don't even teach anything about the Jews. Hungary had one of the biggest and most affluent Jewish populations in the history of European Jewry. Under the Nazis, 600,000 Jews were murdered. They didn't have to have any help because the Hungarian Arrow Cross made sure those Jews were being killed.

I would love to testify on that subject any time. I'm not Hungarian, but I think it's pretty scary here.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you for that.

I also want to ask you about the idea that equitable consideration of Jewish refugees from Arab countries is a necessary component of any just and lasting peace agreement. Just tell me a little bit about how you would see this in practice.

Perhaps I'll ask Mr. Fogel to add to that. Ms. Waldman, perhaps you could give us an idea of what that would look like, because that's a very important point you made.

[Regina Bublil Waldman]

Right. I'm not a politician, but I understand that at some point President Clinton got an idea, which was actually implemented, to start a fund for people who had become victims of the previous war in Iraq.

What happened was when missiles, for example, were thrown at homes in Israel or other places, there was a fund that compensated such victims. The idea came up that it would be really great if international bodies got together, including, of course, the UN and the Quartet, so that when it came time to negotiate reparations or redress for the Palestinians, at that point there would be a fund that would be designated for all victims, whether they be Palestinians, Jews, or Christians, to be able to apply to the fund. That way it would not be a quid pro quo and it would not look like it—and it doesn't look like it—because we have every legitimate right to have redress as Jewish refugees, and the Palestinian issue should be addressed as well, rightly so. I think maybe create a fund that would allow everyone to tap into and to prove that they were refugees. It might take the politics out of it, so to speak, and I would advocate for that.

Of course, unless we make the issue known and unless we bring this to the floor of international bodies such as yourselves, then we won't go anywhere because you can't at the last minute come and say, “We just forgot something: the Jewish refugees should be part of this”. If we get, for example, your government to start working on this, and then possibly the United States and Europe, then this becomes part of the narrative. Our narrative is just non-existent right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You have about 30 seconds left, if you want.

[Shimon Fogel]

I would simply add that I think it's dangerous for us to be prescriptive in terms of where this process would lead. If we recognize that the constructive resolution will come from direct negotiations, there are direct stakeholders who can deal with that.

I think for us the important issue would be to provide some validation. That, more than anything else, I think, gives people the sense that their experience is recognized, it's validated, it's valued, and it becomes instructive. Going forward, I think that one of the important things for the international community to be able to extract from the whole experience is what educational value this has for us in a generic sense as we look at the problems going forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to turn it over to Mr. Dechert.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to Rabbi Fogel and Ms. Waldman. Thank you very much for your appearance here today. I'd like to start with Rabbi Fogel.

First of all, Rabbi Fogel, I'll take just a minute—and I hope not to embarrass you too much—to say it's good to see you again and to congratulate you on behalf of all of my colleagues here at the foreign affairs committee for the award that you were presented with last evening by the Polish government for your efforts to keep alive the memory of Polish Jews who so tragically lost their lives during and at the end of the Second World War. It's a wonderful thing that you have done to keep that memory alive. It's important that people understand that history, and I know it's from that same sense of spirit that you're here today to tell us about the Jewish refugees from the Middle East.

This committee hears quite regularly from human rights organizations such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and many other international human rights groups. We haven't heard much from any of them about this particular issue, about the plight of Jewish refugees. Do you know of any who have spoken out on this issue? Can you tell us what the positions of Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch are on this issue?

[Shimon Fogel]

I don't think they've taken out a position, and that's not especially surprising. The experience of Jewish refugees from Arab countries, post their refugee status, is remarkably different from that of Palestinian refugees. I hesitated at taking the committee into something that's a little off topic and very political, but the experience of Palestinian refugees is readily evident to everybody who cares to look. For the most part, those who haven't left the region have been limited in terms of the opportunities provided for them by the countries in which they find themselves, so the problem has grown and become exacerbated as generations move forward.

In the case of Jewish refugees from Arab lands, most have gone to Israel, but for those who have resettled in the west, their experience, post their refugee status, has been very different. So here it's more, as Ms. Waldman mentioned, about recognizing the narrative and the fact that a particular event, the creation of the State of Israel, the Arab-Israeli conflict, produced two distinct but equally compelling sets of refugees. One is recognized in the formal narrative of countries like Canada. The other is ignored. To bring balance and equity into the equation, to be able to move forward and say that a resolution addresses in a meaningful way the experience of all those who are impacted by the conflict, there's a need to bring in formal recognition of the Jewish experience.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you again to Rabbi Fogel.

The former Israeli deputy foreign minister, Danny Ayalon said the following:The problem of refugees is probably the most thorny and painful one. Everyone agrees without solving this we won't be able to achieve true peace or normalisation in the Middle East.

Do you agree with that statement? In your opinion, what needs to be done in order to bring about a broader peace process, and how does this issue fit into the equation for peace in the Middle East?

[Shimon Fogel]

There's no doubt that the refugee issue is central to any resolution of the conflict. To suggest otherwise would be to deny the reality, most particularly, of Palestinians who continue to suffer in refugee camps, not only in the West Bank or in Gaza, but in all the surrounding countries around Israel. There's an urgent need for that to be addressed.

I think there are important differences between the approaches recommended by some and those that, I think, are based on a correct reading of international law and a practical way of moving forward. Palestinians should be repatriated to a Palestinian state, in the same way as for the most part Jewish refugees are repatriated to the Jewish state. Those who opt to live elsewhere—there are many among Palestinian refugees who have made homes for themselves—are already experiencing third and fourth generation lives in the United States, Canada, Europe, and elsewhere.

That's similar to Jewish refugees from Arab countries who have also made their homes here in Canada as well as in Europe and the United States. For those in the region, the Jews already have a resolution. They're living in Israel as full citizens, productive contributors to the state. So our attention, naturally, is directed toward what do we do in order to enhance the quality of lives of Palestinians who are still languishing in refugee camps. But that becomes part of the resolution as opposed to a recognition of the reality of having been a refugee.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you. I think I have only one minute left, so I'll quickly move to Ms. Waldman.

Ms. Waldman, first may I say on behalf of myself and my colleagues here on the committee, our condolences for the way that your family and your community was treated in Libya. I'm very sorry that happened. But I thank you for bringing your stories to our committee today and, through us, to the Parliament of Canada and the people of Canada. We'll make sure these stories are heard and understood.

Many people have asked what your purpose is in coming before our committee and coming before similar committees in other countries. Are you looking for compensation? Are you looking for recognition? What is it that you seek by coming to our committee today?

[Regina Bublil Waldman]

We definitely seek recognition. My organization doesn't really look for compensation, but we are looking to educate the public, so that our narrative be included. It's very painful for me when I'm speaking to campus students or anywhere I'm invited to address the issue. Young people, and especially educated people, Ph.D.s in politics, would turn to me and say, “What are you talking about? We didn't even know there were Jews in North Africa, let alone refugees”. It's something that we need to address.

I'm here today, but 10 years ago I would have never dreamt that I would be here testifying. It is because of the work of people who have been bringing this issue to the fore that we hope to have a resolution. I cannot sit idly by. I fought for the rights of victims of the Pinochet regime.

I am a human rights activist. I won all kinds of awards for human rights work. It is time for me, personally, to fight for our people and to get recognition. It's very important that our narrative be included.

I also want to speak on the issue of Palestinian refugees. It's important that people know that in Lebanon today, for example, 300,000 Palestinian refugees are in refugee camps. They're rated as the poorest people in the country simply because the Lebanese government refuses to give them nationality, a permit to work, and considers them second-class citizens. They cannot even use public schools or public medical services. They're being discriminated against by the country that is hosting them except if they go to the west. That's really very sad.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to turn it over to Mr. Rae, for seven minutes.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Let me thank our guest from Hungary, Ms. Bublil Waldman, and also thank Shimon Fogel for being here.

I hope nobody misunderstands this question. Mr. Fogel's presentation talked a lot about how Canadian diplomats were, of course, aware of the terrible discrimination that existed in a number of capitals and cities where Jews had been present for thousands of years and were leaving the country, and that until Mr. Martin made his statement, there was no formal statement from Canada about the refugee situation affecting Jewish refugees from the Maghreb and from other countries in the Middle East.

I have to say that in my meetings with Israeli leaders going back to 1979, I never heard from a single Israeli leader of any political stripe asking that the issue of Jewish refugees from Arab countries be included in the discussions about what the ultimate solutions would be. It didn't seem to be part of the Oslo discussion—unless I'm wrong—it wasn't part of the Madrid conference in 1993.

I'm not being argumentative. I'm just asking as to.... We have to recognize that this is a relatively recent issue to be placed on the political table not only in Canada but virtually everywhere.

I'm asking for guidance here. At what point historically did it seem necessary and appropriate to make this part of what would be a comprehensive or a political resolution of the situation in the Middle East?

Am I wrong? Have I missed something?

[Shimon Fogel]

Descriptively, I think, you're reasonably accurate. The only comment I would make about the premise of the observation is that I do recall that at the beginning of the Oslo process, when Canada was invited to serve as the gavel holder of the refugee working group, there were some focused discussions about what the scope of the working group's activity should be, and whether they should include consideration of Jews who had become refugees from Arab lands.

The conclusion then, one which , frankly, we supported, was that the working group was focusing its efforts on providing material help to Palestinian refugees so that they too could benefit from the peace dividends going forward, and to bring them in parallel with other dimensions of the peace process so that there could be some uniformity when it came time to move toward resolutions.

There was a deliberate decision to not address Jewish refugees from Arab lands, because they in fact had already benefited from meaningful resolution by their absorption into Israel or into countries throughout the diaspora.

Where I would offer some comment is that, first I think we have to divide it into two separate categories. As a Canadian, it's important for me to make a distinction between Canada's response to the reality of Jewish refugees from Arab countries to that of Jews who were facing similar challenges in Europe prior to World War II.

In the case of Jewish refugees from Arab countries, Canadian officials were very responsive. They recognized it quickly. They recommended steps to address it. The result was an expedited process of immigration to Canada. In that respect, there is no quarrel or grievance against Canada's approach.

We focus on somehow formally recognizing it, and that's really the nub of your question. In that regard, I would offer just the following thought.

The immediate instinct when confronted with an issue of refugees is to fix the problem, to provide them with material help, to support their transition into a safer environment, and so forth. With respect to Jewish refugees from Arab countries, that was less of an urgent call because it was resolved, whereas I think we would all agree there are acute problems confronting Palestinian refugees, who require attention today to materially enhance the quality of their lives.

It is only when we get to a point where we're actually starting to focus on what a comprehensive resolution looks like that we do an inventory of all of those outstanding issues that require some attention. From our perspective, attention to the Jewish refugee claims from Arab countries starts, and may end, with formal recognition of including that narrative that Ms. Waldman referred to.

President Clinton came up with some kind of formula. It's rather complex. I don't know that it's in the committee's interest to inquire into it. But I think in terms of allowing stakeholders to exit a comprehensive resolution of the conflict, complete and whole, it has to include some kind of validation of their experience.

I think it's in that respect that we got more attention to it over the last decade than previously.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I was making the point last week. I think we had a very useful historical discussion on how the word “refugee” appeared in the 1967 resolution without any adjective in front of it. We can say legitimately that Resolution 242, which is the touchstone of a lot of discussion still today about how we're going to get to where we need to get to, is one where you can say there's no reason the world couldn't recognize the refugee situation involving the Jewish population in Arab countries. There's no reason that can't or shouldn't be done in that resolution.

My sense from listening carefully to what Ms. Waldman had to say, and I'm very appreciative of her description, is that there's a big difference between recognizing a narrative as part of something that needs to be done in the world, and looking at what the political issue is here with respect to whether or not we're going to get people to the table to discuss the issues affecting the Palestinians and the Israelis and the Israeli government. I think that's something we need to reflect on when we look at what our own resolution will look like.

It seems to me we do need to think very carefully. We can't draw an exact parallel between the situation involving the Palestinian refugees who still maintain their refugee status and those hundreds of thousands of Jews who left the Middle East—a great proportion went to Israel, and a large number went to North American countries and elsewhere—who are now in the second and third generation of being settled.

The narrative absolutely has to be told. That history has to be understood. The question of what political form that takes seems to me to still be a question that we as a committee need to consider as we go forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Rae. That's all the time we have. We're going to finish with Mr. Van Kesteren for five minutes, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to both witnesses for being here.

Like Mr. Rae, I must confess I knew very little, which would probably be an exaggeration, about your plight and what happened to the Jewish community in Africa and other places. I share with him that puzzlement as to why this hasn't come forth. I have an idea, and I don't want to put thoughts in your mind, but Madam Waldman, maybe you could expand on it. I'm somewhat reluctant and cautious to say this but it's almost the equivalent of an abused child who has suffered the pain for so long and then grows up and finally faces his or her abuser.

There's also an equivalent there too as the abused is very reluctant to take that responsibility and to accept the fact that this has happened. Is there a little of that? We talk about the Stockholm syndrome. I don't know what syndrome you would call this, but is there a little of that as well as to why this hasn't become foremost in our news when we discuss Middle Eastern policy and such?

Ms. Waldman.

[Regina Bublil Waldman]

First, maybe it's not politically correct to say so, but the United Nations has never been a friend of the Jews. The United Nations has made sure that every single time they have made a resolution about the Palestinians—over 190, I believe—there has never been one single, solitary resolution about us. Twice the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has recognized us as refugees, but never once has the UNHCR recognized us in any other way or given us the benefit of a resolution. When it comes to issues of refugees, people always look to the United Nations as being the expert. I think that has a lot to do with erasing, so to speak, our history from the face of the earth.

The other part, and again this is a personal opinion, is we never looked at ourselves as victims, and we felt very ashamed of our history. I can only speak from personal experience. When my family got out and they established themselves in Israel or in other places, they felt that what had happened to them was very shameful. They lost a lot of their dignity. They lost a lot of their pride. They lost their culture. They felt pain and they didn't want to revisit it.

In fact, surprisingly enough, in the same vein as you're talking about, my organization, Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa, has just now started with another group, Sephardi Voices, a program where we are doing videos of witnesses, people such as myself from every Arab country. It took 40 years for us to speak out because it was so painful. That may not be the only reason, of course. But I know that at first my mother would not tell her story, and she has a much more dramatic story than I do. It wasn't until two years ago that I was able to convince my mother to sit in front of a video camera and tell her story.

I think part of it is psychological. It may not have been the right way to go about it. Did we do it the right way? No. Should we have spoken out at first? Yes. I sometimes was asked by Libyan Jews, “Aren't you afraid that Gadhafi might come after you?” After all, Gadhafi was alive while I was doing this work. I had received some threats, letters. Two of my Libyan Jewish friends who escaped to Rome were killed by Gadhafi. There was always this fear of speaking out. Unfortunately, I think that is also part of what happened.

I think because we were absorbed so successfully in our business ways, and because we have a life and we're not sitting in a refugee camp, the flame was not on all the time. After all, we are successful. I think Israel in many ways looked at it that way too: “Well, you're citizens of Israel now. We're proud of you. You're part of our accomplishment. You're no longer refugees.” Or at least they don't look at us that way, but I think that legally we are refugees and our narrative and our rights need to be in a place where they belong.