Foreign Affairs Committee on Jan. 27th, 2015

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

What would be the objective of a meeting like that? Perhaps you mentioned it in your response before. I'm just wondering what the purpose would be from the Russian perspective, or any perspective.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

I don't want to speak for the Russian government, but my assumption is that they're working to end the violence and promote some form of reconciliation—

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

In Syria.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

—that could lead to an end to the crisis.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

In terms of helping Syrian refugees, I know the government announced that it would be accepting more, finally after a great deal of pressure. But if we poured more resources into this aspect of the crisis—aid to refugees, assistance to refugees—would it be possible to bring Syrian refugees to Canada faster? What are the obstacles to getting these refugees to Canada faster? Are there financial obstacles? Are all the obstacles administrative, due process? Could you comment on that?

[Leslie Norton]

With all due respect, I think that goes beyond the mandate of what we're here to speak to, and I would kindly suggest that our CIC colleagues be invited to respond to that.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Fair enough.

In terms of the Office of Religious Freedom, I understand the objective, but can you take me through sort of a step-by-step scenario?

Concretely what are you aiming to do when you go over there, Mr. Bennett, to pursue your very worthwhile and noble mandate? You meet different religious groups over in the region, and what are you going to ask them to do, concretely? It seems you'll be going into a situation of extreme uncertainty and chaos where the immediate concerns are survival and protection from immediate violence and so on.

You have a very difficult task, which you are taking up with a lot of fortitude and so on, but what are the concrete steps you will take?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

Let me be very frank to begin with. One of our operating understandings in the Office of Religious Freedom is to avoid any naïveté. I think whether it's in the Middle East or in Pakistan or in many other countries where you have the entrenched nature of this type of religious persecution and violations of religious freedom, whether through social hostilities, government restrictions, or government action or inaction, in many cases we're talking about multi-generational change.

In the case of Iraq—and by extension Syria—the two are linked. The persecutions taking place in Iraq have a particular flavour. In Syria we're seeing them in the context of a civil war.

My concern when I go over is really to have a better understanding of the immediate needs of these communities, especially religious minority communities, that have been displaced from Syria and Iraq and that are in countries of proximate migration, Lebanon and Jordan, and what they require to ensure they can remain in the region if they choose to. What do we need to do in terms of engaging our allies such as the Jordanians, the Lebanese, and others? How can we assist them?

Often it's through very small programming activities. It can be through advocacy on the international stage or through multilateral bodies—the UN or others. We're just in the process of building up an international contact group on religious freedom to bring together like-minded countries that seek to advance religious freedom.

It's not just western liberal democracies. We're engaging the Jordanians, the Indonesians, members of a number of countries in sub-Saharan Africa, the Moroccans, and the Tunisians to look at how, if we have this understanding about religious freedom, we can work both within multilateral institutions and together as a body to raise awareness about what is going on. I think part of that is also about engaging countries in the region that might need a little bit more support.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

It is sometimes a matter of speaking to the right person who can press the right lever to bring some kind of relief to a persecuted group. It could be small and so on, but it happens. These are the little miracles, if you will, of outreach.

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

That's right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you. That's perfect timing.

We're going to start a second round, which will be five minutes, beginning with Ms. Brown.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks so much for being here. The committee has been seized with this study for the last several meetings, and your experience and input are highly valued.

Ms. Norton, I am going to turn some of my time over to you for a bit more discussion on the humanitarian situation. I know you have spent time on the ground there, and you have some incredible insight into what's going on.

Canada has been a generous contributor, and we're very thankful to Canadian taxpayers for what they have given to help resolve situations over there, but the humanitarian needs are great. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the partners we are working with, the other countries that are donor participants, and how we are working together.

I know one of the things we hear is that oftentimes money that is pledged doesn't get there. Can you tell us how we are working to ensure the funds that are pledged are contributed, where they go, and who the humanitarian partners we're working with are?

It's a big question.

[Leslie Norton]

Thank you very much for your many questions in your one big question. Perhaps I'll just start by saying that currently there's an estimated 5.2 million people requiring assistance in Iraq itself, of which 1.5 million people are considered out of reach. So they're in the hard to reach areas.

As Mr. Gwozdecky had noted in his opening remarks, Canada has provided over $67.4 million to respond to the humanitarian needs of Iraqis. We are currently the fourth-largest donor to this humanitarian crisis. We are behind Saudi Arabia, the U.S., and the U.K., according to the numbers today.

What we do when we work in such complex situations, as you know, is that we work with trusted and experienced partners. The very serious security situation in many parts of Iraq just underscores the importance of needing to work with these experienced partners. Our partners include UN agencies like the World Food Programme, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, as well as UNICEF for the No Lost Generation initiative; the Red Cross movement, primarily the ICRC—and it is the ICRC who has access in the hard to reach areas—as well as a number of NGOs. When I was in the region in October I was in Dohuk and Erbil and what I did note was that at the time there were not as many partners as one might find in other contexts. Again that's for obvious reasons because of the challenges working particularly in this context.

What we do know is that our partners are getting results and some of the results that our partners are reporting, for instance, are that WFP has been able to feed 1.5 million people. We also know that 1.26 million people are receiving shelter, as well as essential household items. We also know that 500,000 IDP and host-community children are given access to educational opportunities. This is something that is the direct result of the Canadian assistance in combination with the other donors.

Iraq is not a context like Syria where there have been annual pledging conferences hosted by the Kuwaiti government. However, it does continue to have a different type of profile. We are not meeting as donors four times a year in Kuwait to talk about the pledges made, and to basically report on pledges made. It's a different context.

So who are we working with? I've answered that. As for the other donors, I mentioned the four largest donors. However, in Baghdad and in Erbil there is a donor coordination group that comes together. While we do not have a permanent humanitarian officer based in northern Iraq, we do have people travelling there from Amman on a regular basis. I also have my team travelling there perhaps four to six times a year. We're visiting the country on a regular basis.

When I was there we did in fact get together with the NGO community, with the ICRC, and we also visited and met with the UN agencies that are there. The UN has activated the cluster system, so there are regular meetings going on to ensure coordination.

Perhaps on a final point, we do ensure accountability for our humanitarian funding, again, by working with these experienced partners. They have put in place very strong accountability measures and systems to ensure that funds are used in an effective, efficient, and appropriate manner.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Norton.

We're going to turn back over to Mr. Dewar for five minutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to understand how things are being coordinated.

I appreciate, Mr. Gwozdecky, that obviously on the military side, as you mentioned, you'll let the ministers respond to those questions. But as we've noted before at this committee, on this issue and others, there's an understanding of a kind of whole-of-government approach. In terms of consultation, I'm assuming there is some back and forth between departments. Perhaps you could inform us on how DFATD is being consulted on the mission and how that's working.

I was interested to note the language in your comments, that the goals were to oppose ISIL and support people; that's great. We hear other things, like degrade and destroy, from other parts of government, and we're in a full-out war when it comes to even senior members of cabinet. This is a strategic plan that has to be put into play, and that's what you're here to describe.

First, are you being consulted by DND on what the strategy should be? Second, what are the metrics you're using for success? Many people are looking at what's happening and asking how we're measuring this. I mean, the World Food Programme, that's fine, but when you're talking about the overall goals, are there metrics or is there a real measurement you're using as government officials, one that you've been given or that you've been provided?

So first, what's the consultation like with DND and the military, from your end? Second, what are you measuring here, and if you have a measurement, could you share that with us in terms of how things are going?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

Let me first speak to the question of the strategic goal, which I would defer to the Prime Minister, who pretty much laid it out clearly. Let me just remind you of what he said. He said that we intend to “significantly degrade the capabilities of ISIL” to halt its spread in the region and greatly reduce its capacity to launch terrorist attacks outside the region. He went on to say that this will not eliminate ISIL, nor automatically ensure that an alternative form of governance is able to occupy the space currently controlled by ISIL in Iraq or Syria, but it will, however, open the opportunity for others to do so.

I think in that statement you see that there are really two lines of work here. One is the military mission, which is, as he indicated, trying to create a space for the governments of Iraq and Syria to take control of their territories and institute governance for all. It's the military mission that is defined and will be discussed on Thursday, but as I mentioned, we're engaged in the longer-term process of having a relationship, a mutually beneficial one, with important governments in the Middle East. That's an ongoing one. It doesn't end after six months; it's simply in our interest to do so.

In terms of the consultation, there is constant communication and consultation with National Defence and all the other government agencies. Not every bit of information is shared with each other. It's on the basis of what our respective mandates are. Ultimately it's for the ministers and cabinet and the Prime Minister to decide on strategic direction. It's really officials who are providing the advice that would support that.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That's helpful.

Were you consulted on whether or not to go into Syria? Is that something where there were discussions between department officials as well as military officials? I'm speaking about the military option.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

I don't know that I want to speak for the entire Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development. As you can see here, there are many different players. I would just like to keep it to the fact that there is constant consultation, but I'm not going to address every single decision—

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Well, no, I'm just saying that because we were guided...or the government has the motion from Parliament, and one of the options there was the Syrian option. I'm just trying to get an understanding of how things are working on this mission and if there were any consultations with the department. Obviously there's a diplomatic issue here. There's a foreign affairs issue as well as a military one. I note that the door had been opened, and it's since been closed by your minister, which I was happy to see. We were hoping that would be the case.

I'm just trying to understand how this is working and if the department was consulted on Syria at all.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

There's a high degree of consultation and coordination right across the government. But as I've said, ultimately it's for ministers and the Prime Minister to set the strategic direction.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Goldring will finish off the second round.

You have five minutes, sir.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The previous prime minister of Iraq has been accused of fuelling the sectarian tensions and is alleged to have marginalized Iraq's Sunni minority. This seems to have caused all kinds of difficulties and problems straight through from the governance of the country to the military itself, to the security, to having a combined effort of forces being brought to bear.

With the new unity government that was sworn in as of September last year, have there been some dramatic improvements? Is that enough time to see it materialize into any real leadership improvements and cohesion? If so, has it gotten down to the most elemental of security and military forces, to bring back the kind of Iraqi cohesion and the way they were approaching things in the past?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

I would like to come back to the point of how we got here. You mentioned the point in the speech where we talked about how the previous government under Prime Minister al-Maliki had marginalized and in fact created the conditions for a good percentage of the population to be feeling totally disenfranchised.

I was ambassador to Iraq during this period, under the al-Maliki regime, and I served in a previous assignment in Syria. What I can tell you is that both of these societies are fundamentally moderate. They're very progressive. They're incredibly diverse. ISIL is not an entity that would naturally, under normal circumstances, enjoy the support of the population.

The new government in Iraq is truly an inclusive one, with representatives, cabinet ministers, from all the major parties—Sunni, Shia, Kurd. There's even a Christian minister. It has articulated a platform that is inclusive, which is entirely what the international community has been calling on them to do. But it is early days to point to whether or not they have succeeded. They've had some promising starts, but there's still a long way to go in terms of rolling out that platform in a meaningful way that has an impact—for example, ensuring that the armed forces are not only representative of the population but also effective. We've seen that they have a lot of needs before they can truly play that role.

The government itself has outlined a progressive agenda in terms of eliminating corruption. They have a promising start, but there's still a good deal of work to be done before we can claim victory on that front.