Evidence of meeting #58 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chinese.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
Thank you very much.
Thank you to all of the witnesses for appearing here today,
I too find it very concerning that a foreign diplomat would ever think that we here as Canadians and as the Government of Canada can be instructed or deterred from our responsibilities. We are all citizens of the world. Not only do we look at the rights, responsibilities, and freedoms of Canadians, but we also do our part internationally to review those to see what we can do as citizens of the world to possibly help. Rather, I'm thinking such heavy-handedness really speaks to the basis of your problem. Quite frankly, I think it legitimizes your concerns.
With that in mind, and seeing the descriptions that have been given on the nomination process and of the procedures that are very concerning, the question that I would have—and I'm not sure who to pose it to—is that because this was a joint declaration deposited with the United Nations, what have you done as a group to approach the United Nations? There are certain specific parts in the United Nations, such as the Secretary-General for Human Rights, that review democracy rights. There's also an interparliamentary unit that has observer status with the United Nations, and they do work internationally on democratic rights and freedoms.
Have any of these groups, or has the United Nations, been of any assistance to you?
Maybe Mr. Burton could comment on that.
12:20 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
I think because of the great influence of China in the United Nations, the United Nations is probably not the way to go with this because of China's developmental aid to many members of the United Nations on human rights and other issues. The nations are inclined to support China because China makes it explicit that they expect the support of those nations if those nations expect to continue to receive aid for developmental projects for, say, resource extraction for trans-shipment to China. That's why I'm feeling that the plurilateral approach, where Canada unites with like-minded countries to try to bring this issue to the fore and to expose what China is attempting to do in Hong Kong, is probably the most effective way for us to express our legitimate concerns over the situation.
The reality is that China has a terrific coercive influence in the global community, particularly among countries of the third world who are increasingly dependent on Chinese purchase of their resources for maintaining their national economy. I think that's why we have to be doing something, such as Canada taking the initiative to bring this out in another form.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
To date, which are those like-minded countries that you've been approaching this issue with?
12:20 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
I don't have the list of the countries that endorse the Sino-British joint declaration, but I believe these would be primarily western European and Scandinavian nations.
12:20 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
Yes.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB
How many of them have you been in communication with to try to do this similar type of intervention?
12:20 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
Well, I'm a lowly professor from St. Catharines, Ontario, who studies China, so I haven't been actually approaching any national governments on this question, with all due respect.
I do believe our Hong Kong friends might be able to answer that question.
12:20 p.m.
Chairman, Civic Party, As an Individual
Thank you.
First of all, the joint declaration itself does not mention universal suffrage, but of course it mentions the basic policies and so on. Also, Hong Kong people have been going to the UN regularly, particularly on the human rights issue. As well, the UN has a number of times endorsed article 25 of ICCPR, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, as being applicable to Hong Kong, and that's on the definition of “universal suffrage”, because our basic law, article 39, incorporates the ICCPR, which contains the definition of “universal suffrage”.
We, of course, as Hong Kong citizens generally don't have the right to approach other foreign countries to really seek help. We are actually very grateful for today, for you, for the Canadian Parliament giving us the opportunity to speak to you, and for your interest and concern in relation to Hong Kong. We have always felt that maybe Hong Kong is just too small for the international community and that China is just too big, with so many trade benefits.
So it's always really comforting to hear, Mr. Goldring, when you speak as a citizen of the world. We're very, very grateful for that.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you, Mr. Goldring. That's all the time we have for that round.
We'll now go to Mr. Saganash for five minutes, please.
May 5th, 2015 / 12:25 p.m.
NDP
Romeo Saganash NDP Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank all of our witnesses as well for their excellent presentations.
I want to go back to the question that was just posed. I worked for much of my career at the United Nations—for 23 years, as a matter of fact—so I wasn't surprised to see the letter we got from the ambassador asking us to refrain from doing what we are doing today, having seen that from other countries while I was working at the United Nations.
But I do think, and I want to repeat what my colleague just said a while ago, that we should never shy away as a country from reminding other member states of the United Nations of their obligations under the United Nations charter. Those obligations contain respect for the human rights of all. That's part of the principles and purposes of the United Nations, and I'm a true believer in those principles and purposes.
I want to go back to some of the processes that exist under international human rights law. I wonder to what extent these mechanisms have been used in the past. I know that once you sign on to an international covenant, as China did with the political and civil rights covenant back in 1988, I believe....
To what extent was that mechanism used with the human rights committee? I know that member states have to submit every four to five years a periodic report to show to what extent they're implementing the rights that are provided for under those covenants. To what extent have you used these mechanisms? You do have a right to reply to the report that China submits to these review committees. Have you used them in any way?
Ms. Eu, or Mr. Burton.
12:25 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
I could speak to that.
I think the key here is that China signed the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights in 1998, but China has not ratified the covenant and therefore is not required to report to the United Nations on its compliance with the specific provisions of the covenant. On the other hand, China has been subject to periodic review under the newer institution, the Human Rights Council. I've had the honour to assist in preparing some documentation in that regard.
Unfortunately, China's government's response, in my view, has not been satisfactory in taking as seriously as we believe it should its obligations to the United Nations charter with regard to human rights. The current situation in China where the President of China has explicitly denounced key principles that permeate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is very concerning.
China has ratified the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which is another very important covenant coming out of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but it took a reservation on an entire article relating to the rights of trade unions.
So it's been challenging. When I was working in the Canadian embassy in China, where I was on my second posting—I was in the political section responsible for our engagement on human rights—I had expectations that China would legitimatize civil society and that we would see a gradual movement towards respect for universal values that are encapsulated in the United Nations charter. And, you know, representatives of China were involved in the drafting of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Unfortunately, at present the Government of China has engaged in a crackdown on civil organizations and has arrested some people who were previously able to function in non-governmental pressure groups in environmental and other areas. So we're seeing movement backwards in that regard as well.
I'm expecting that many of the international agencies that have been active in China supporting the non-government sector will likely have to suspend their operations because the current government is undertaking a campaign against what it refers to as western influences and an explicit condemnation of what it refers to as universal values.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thanks to our witnesses.
Some years ago a Hollywood movie came out, starring Tom Selleck, that was called High Road to China. I always remember one phrase that a gentleman in that movie said: the oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
Perhaps that's exactly what China thought, from Beijing, that it was going to accomplish by just waiting this all out, and it didn't count on the explosion of technology and the influence or the exposure to western culture that has happened in the last 20 years.
Mr. Burton, you mentioned in your commentary that in 1998 Canada came forward with assistance after the declaration was signed, to help China discover or move towards some diplomatic or some more western thought in democracy. Could you tell us a little bit about what the objectives were? What did we accomplish, and is there anything there that we can go back to now in our discussions with China about human rights and what it agreed to do?
12:30 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Brock University, As an Individual
I think at that time in 1998 a primary focus of the Canadian International Development Agency, which had representatives in the embassy in Beijing, was good governance, democratic development, and human rights. When China signed the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, we were very keen to assist China in bringing its laws and practices into compliance with the covenant so that they could ratify and then be subject to the reporting requirements and international supervision that Mr. Saganash referred to. Our proposals were rejected by the Chinese authorities. To the best of my knowledge, we never were able to send in Canadian experts on the covenants or on the reporting requirements to China to provide that kind of assistance. That was unfortunate.
When I was working in the embassy, I was involved in a CIDA-funded project. I was in the political section, but CIDA gave me the administration of a project called the civil society program. That was to provide assistance to Chinese NGOs. We had the Canadian Cancer Society try to assist in the formation of a comparable association in China to support people with cancer. I think none of these things have borne fruit. We were hoping that we could spread a citizens' consciousness through these initiatives that would empower Chinese people to ask for the entitlements they have as human beings and citizens, which everybody, regardless of whether you're Canadian or Chinese or any nationality, should be achieving.
Unfortunately, I put many, many years into this work and am unable to see much benefit. I think you're right: that ground under that oxen is pretty firm.
But I haven't given up. I'm old; I only have a few more years to go.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Don't give up; don't give up.
I'd like to pose a question to our young people.
Ms. Eu, you spoke about the fact that you are not going to be able to run in another election. To you and to the students, do you fear any reprisals? Are there things that you would be able to tell this committee that you can't do, or you won't be allowed to do?
12:30 p.m.
Chairman, Civic Party, As an Individual
I think in Hong Kong, if you are in a democratic movement, you always have to be cautious. Your e-mail can be hacked, your phone can be tapped, and you can be followed. I think Joshua also had that experience. Of course, you also have some very nationalistic men and women who will shout at you, call you all sorts of names, and abuse you and so on. Other than that, I think you just act normal. I certainly am not worried, as such, at the moment.
When I mentioned that I can't run, I was just responding to what Mr. Tung, our first Chief Executive, said in a press conference today. The press asked him about me. He said that anybody who is anti-Communist party cannot be allowed to be a candidate. They will be screened out, basically. When a reporter asked him about Audrey Eu, his answer was that she knows herself what she has done, that kind of thing.
12:35 p.m.
Convenor, Scholarism
Actually, in Hong Kong mobile phones and e-mails being hacked or monitored by some of the pro-Beijing people is quite normal. If in daily life you don't have everything open and public, actually there's not really a problem.
For most of the students, I think the challenge we face now is whether or not all the students who joined the students councils in different universities, or who participated in the Umbrella Movement—some as volunteers with Scholarism just giving out leaflets, who don't have experience in joining civil disobedience—can go back to mainland China anymore. If they can't, of course this will affect their daily lives and their ability to meet their parents in mainland China. For a lot of the university students, they may need to go back to mainland China to do some internship program or to study for one of their semesters. If they can't go back to mainland China, it will really affect their academic progress.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you. That's all the time we have.
Mr. Dewar has a quick question. I don't know if anybody else does.
Mr. Dewar and Mr. Garneau? Okay.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I wanted to build on the last statement and ask both of our younger witnesses today, our students, where the movement is at right now.
Mr. Law, are you still able to organize? Are you networking to keep people on top of the issue? I think that's always important. We were all taken by what happened and the events last fall, but certainly it's hard to keep things going.
I'm just curious to find out, from both of you, how you're keeping the movement going and what kinds of things you are pushing for beyond the excellent recommendations you made to us.
12:35 p.m.
Secretary General, Hong Kong Federation of Students
Thank you for the questions.
The Umbrella Movement is only a part of the political reform movement. There are some important time slots in the agenda for the following years. For instance, we'll have a decision on whether we veto or we pass the political reform proposal in early July. If it is vetoed, then we will most likely have a campaign to urge the government to relaunch the consultation. So a political agenda is still on the table.
If you're talking about the political environment in Hong Kong, I would say it's in a very chaotic situation. After the so-called failure of the Umbrella Movement, when we gained no concrete progress from the movement, a lot of people do not believe in established organizations like the student organization and the political parties. The political spectrum has been opened wide because they do not believe in the old ways of doing politics in Hong Kong. So there's chaos and a lot of distrust among the people.
I think in the future it will be very difficult for any of the organizations to organize or to move people on a scale comparable to the Umbrella Movement in the last year. I think it will settle down in the following months or years, because for the people of Hong Kong it is only the beginning of our civil disobedience and our new page in history. In the old days, we didn't have such protests happening. We are heading into a new era. We need time to get packed. We need time to rethink our path in the future.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Just for my own benefit, is it true that if, let's say, China said, “Okay, Hong Kong, you decide how you're going to elect your new Chief Electoral Officer”, they still under the basic law retain the right to approve or not approve whoever might be chosen as the Chief Executive Officer?