Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2013

[Sabine Nolke, Director General, Non-Proliferation and Security Threat Reduction Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Just to note that the possibility of including specific reference to investment was discussed during the negotiations in Dublin, but agreement was not reached on that particular provision in Dublin so it's not specifically contained in the convention, which is one of the reasons why we kept out that specific wording. The intention of the convention was to be as wide as possible in prohibiting any assistance, and that's what the bill currently does.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Mr. Obhrai.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Chair, there is one procedural issue arising out of this. When a change is going to be made to the bill by any amendment that is done here unfortunately from what I understand—the justice department can correct me—it has to go back to cabinet for approval and then we come back again with those changes, which will then delay the whole process. That is what the PCO ruling has been. I'm just laying it on the table.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Were you asking the table?

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

I've been informed. I'm just telling the table that if you put in any amendments, anything, I'm just letting the opposition know it'll have to go back to cabinet.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'd like to refer that to our friends at the table.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Perhaps you would. I'm being very nice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Are there any comments at the back from our witnesses?

[Christopher Ram]

Sorry, was there a question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I think Mr. Obhrai was making a statement and I think Mr. Dewar was making that a question.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Indeed.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

It's the opposition. It's my understanding that any amendment that is made here would have to go back to cabinet, and then the bill would come back here.

[Sabine Nolke]

I would have to take advice on that from the Privy Council Office itself, but our understanding is not dissimilar to yours. But since I'm bearing witness here, I certainly wouldn't want to swear an oath to that fact. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Dewar, we have a list.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I wanted to get another opinion, Chair, for obvious reasons. I understand what the government might be intending here, but legislation can also just go from here, go back, and there are other opportunities to change it then. Of course, if there is an amendment, it can go back to the Senate, if you choose to direct it that way.

You have to appreciate, Chair, that we got this bill after a prorogation. It was in the Senate. It's where it started. The government should be a little more humble in terms of timelines here. I think my colleague is trying to suggest somehow this would delay things. Well, the fact of the matter is the government has delayed Parliament for quite a while. So if we're going to delay things to make legislation better, there's no problem on this side.

But I think he should also be clear about his advice, because I'm not sure we had clarity on this, and it would be helpful if the point that he was making was absolutely clear. And following that would be, what is his point? Is it that this is a rush job now?

This is an international treaty, Mr. Chair, and we want to make sure it's the best legislation we can offer, and to suggest that we can't look at amendments or that we have to rush things through, I don't think honours the commitment that we've made to our partners internationally, and I don't think it's good for our reputation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I have a list here. I have Madame Laverdière, then I have Mr. Obhrai.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

It's simply to say I second what my colleague Paul Dewar just said.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay.

I have Mr. Obhrai, and then Mr. Garneau.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

In line with what Madam Nolke said, this information was provided to us by the PCO.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Garneau, and then Mr. Ram.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

We signed the convention in 2008. It's been over five years, so I'm not sure what the point of the question was. Is it to suggest that a little bit of a delay would be unacceptable? Is that the reason for it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay, Mr. Ram.

[Christopher Ram]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Far be it for me to become involved in the debate; it's not my role. But just in terms of the mechanics of how this sort of thing is done, it would depend on the nature of the amendment.

The legislative services branch of the justice department normally drafts the legislation and it would normally draft government amendments. The way that normally happens is that a policy decision is made—and in this case, we're talking about government legislation, obviously—which then gives clear policy direction to the drafters, who then, with experts like Lieutenant-Colonel Penny and me, have to sit down and figure out how to make the actual amendment or the actual provision work in conformity with the treaty, in conformity with the charter, Canadian criminal law, and whatever other parameters there might be.

From the justice department's standpoint, I think the requirement is more of a practical one. We need clear policy direction and then time to look at how to make it fit. How long that takes would depend on the nature of the amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I agree with most of that except Parliament's the one to give direction here, and we give direction, and my friend's right, he then drafts it.

After amendments go from here, they usually go back to the other place, and then come back to us. Anyway, the point being, I hope we've learned something from our civics lesson today. But the fact is we can actually get this thing moving if our friend is willing to take the time to do it right, and I'm sure he'll be open to amendments later.

Thank you, Chair.