Evidence of meeting #107 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inuit.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chair  Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)
Cindy Dickson  Executive Director, Arctic Athabaskan Council
Charlie Watt  President, Makivik Corporation
Robin Campbell  Associate, Hutchins Legal Inc.
Leona Alleslev  Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, CPC
Frank Baylis  Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

I have a last question. You're working within our Arctic Council, and you have the opportunity through the Arctic Council to collaborate with other people who live in the Arctic. Are you finding that there are other populations, not necessarily in Canada but maybe in Russia or in other areas, that are similarly facing somewhat of a rising health risk or a health risk that is different from what they were used to before?

Before, there was no contamination to some extent, and different contaminants now are being introduced into that area. Are you finding that it's similar in the Arctic amongst other countries and communities, or is it specific to one area?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Arctic Athabaskan Council

Cindy Dickson

No, it's similar in other regions. There are different health concerns, but AMAP, the Arctic monitoring and assessment program of the Arctic Council, really deals very well with a lot of the emerging issues or issues that have been documented from the past. They do get together and have very good discussions. Canada is really one of the only countries I know of that connects the northern contaminants program to AMAP very well. We give the results to AMAP and then share that broadly.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you very much.

We'll move now to MP Blaikie.

4 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your work and thank you for your time here today.

My question probably has a few different components to it, but it centres largely around the opening up of the north for commercial activity as climate change progresses. Oftentimes in Canada's history, when the rights of indigenous people have been ignored or indigenous people have been displaced, there's usually been an economic imperative, not always but often because somebody wants to develop this or develop that.

I'm curious to know, first of all, what you see as some of the risks to increased commercial development in the north, and I'm curious also to know what you think some of the potential benefits for your communities are.

Finally, what kind of framework do you think we could be putting in place now to ensure that we can maximize the benefits to your communities and to Canada while ensuring that we don't repeat mistakes of the past, where indigenous people have been pushed out once there's been economic interest from others?

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Arctic Athabaskan Council

Cindy Dickson

Those are very interesting questions, because I have been involved with some of these issues myself.

Communities want to see economic development. They do want to see our communities prosper. The generations that are now starting to get into higher levels of education want to be able to see success and to have opportunities as other Canadians do. That said, there is also a sense of wanting to make sure that the lands given out for economic opportunity have as little impact as possible and that the technology that moves into our areas is deemed safe.

The way to do this is really to have good discussions with our communities and with the leaders. You need to start this framework quite early. We do have YESAB here in the territory, which looks at impacts and benefits. They are the ones who give the social licence to have economic opportunities.

At the community level, I think you must go into the regions well before anything takes place. You have to talk to people. You have to give them a big-picture view with a long outreach of 10 to 20 years on what the vision is for that area. You have to work so that the people are well informed and have opportunity. You have to bring forward very early the pros and cons of some of these economic opportunities.

This is particularly true with oil and gas development. In our region we have a lot of mining. We've had it for over 100 years, and people are quite familiar with it. Oil and gas is something different. We haven't had that here in the north. There could be a lot of education moving forward. People talk about the Law of the Sea. What are the different routes if there's going to be an extractive industry in that area? Start gearing education components to our people so that they could become the petroleum engineers, etc., and not always the menial caste labour.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

How important do you think it is for Canadian sovereignty in the north that any investments in projects be made by either the Government of Canada or by Canadian companies, as opposed to foreign companies? Do you see that as playing out differently, depending on where the money comes from, for your communities? What do you think might be the importance of that for Canadian sovereignty?

4:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Arctic Athabaskan Council

Cindy Dickson

I think Canadian sovereignty is really important to our communities. I think our communities would be more supportive of Canadian companies. Our communities take quite a bit of pride in helping to establish and maintain sovereignty just by virtue of the areas they live in.

I'll give you an example. Sinopec, a Chinese company, invested in a local company in Yukon that was doing exploration, and the communities did not accept that. They now have more acceptance of the company because the company was bought out. Sinopec is no longer in the picture, and the communities are now listening.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you very much.

4:05 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you.

We will now move to MP Sidhu, please.

September 26th, 2018 / 4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Jati Sidhu Liberal Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your testimony here today, Ms. Dickson. It's very important, because we're coming to the region next week.

You touched on a lot of important issues with the changes with Russia and China. I'm pretty sure you know the changes coming into the area. I was wondering how important traditional knowledge of indigenous people is when we're going forward with the policy. How are you going to participate in the dialogue when we're trying to shape the policy for development in that area?

4:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Arctic Athabaskan Council

Cindy Dickson

Thank you.

Traditional knowledge is at the heart of everything we do. It is very key to our work and understanding who we are as a people. We still practise a lot of land-based activities. We still go hunting.

I just came back from hunting this past weekend. We try to make sure that we only take what we need for our family and our friends and elders. We still practise being respectful to our elders. We always ensure that if there is an elder in the room who's older than us, they are provided with the utmost respect, because their knowledge and experience are their higher education, and it goes back much longer than ours.

Our communities are really grounded in the fact that they live in the area where their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents have lived. We think of traditional knowledge as ongoing. The only reason we say “traditional” is that it comes from way back, but it's still moving forward and it's still very much alive. Our people have always been able to adapt different elements into our everyday living.

Boiling it down, it's respect for the land because the land feeds us; respect for the animals that give their lives so we can live, and trying to treat everybody with respect.

My grandfather always said that when he travels, he has friends in all the communities. What he is saying is that all this respect for one another is the key to traditional knowledge.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Jati Sidhu Liberal Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you so much.

You've touched on two countries, Russia and China. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you think that China would be the first one to explore that area? Do you feel comfortable with them coming into the area and exploring it? At the same time, China has been investing heavily in that region, so there's going to be some hope for China. I'd be very careful, but China doesn't have very high environmental practices when they explore. How do you see both countries playing a role in the Arctic?

4:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Arctic Athabaskan Council

Cindy Dickson

People I've had discussions with at the community level are a little bit concerned about Chinese companies coming into our areas because of their environmental practices and human rights practices. They are not comfortable, but at the same time, it is happening. China is moving into certain areas

I think knowledge is key. It's better to be prepared and to be knowledgeable about what's going on. If they want to come into certain areas and do business, maybe this is where we could have some influence or our Canadian government could have some influence on some of the practices that we don't consider right. Maybe this is a role through which our government can influence some of those practices.

In regard to Russia, we absolutely respect the people. We respect the high levels of education that the indigenous people have in Russia. At the same time, we also see a lot of the hardships that people have there. We're very careful when we send our own people over. We hope that there can be better connections between Siberia, Alaska and Canada to establish those kinds of routes—rather than going all the way around.

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Jati Sidhu Liberal Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you so much.

4:10 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Ms. Dickson, that brings us to the end of our time, but I want to thank you for coming and giving us such a wide-ranging testimony. This is tremendously important and beneficial, as we are heading up north early next week. On behalf of everybody on the committee, thank you very much for taking the time to join us today.

4:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Arctic Athabaskan Council

Cindy Dickson

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

I'm going to suspend now.

4:17 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

I'm calling this meeting back to order.

We are fortunate to have our second panel of witnesses here. From Quebec, we have the Honourable Charlie Watt, president of Makivik Corporation and former senator. He retired this past January after 34 years. Joining him is Robin Campbell, associate at Hutchins Legal Inc.

Mr. Watt, would you like to begin your testimony? I understand we might be hearing a short bit from Ms. Campbell as well. Please proceed.

4:17 p.m.

Charlie Watt President, Makivik Corporation

Thank you, honourable members of the House of Commons.

It's been a while now that I haven't been around, but I have learned to enjoy being part of the overall system. At the same time, I have specific issues that I would like to address, matters that may be of concern to you and that are certainly of concern to the Inuit in the Arctic. That's probably one of the reasons I was inside the system and decided to get out of the system and do what I can from the outside to continuously raise the importance of issues that all of us face today, especially with the climate change that is taking place. The country is not the same as it used to be.

As you know, very recently, I think only about a week ago, we got hit with something that I have never witnessed in Canada before—the tornado that passed through Ottawa. It went through Gatineau and also Laval, which I witnessed when I went to Montreal.

That said, for many years I've been here in Ottawa. I remember the first time I came here was, I think, two weeks after I addressed the issue that is coming, which the Inuit already were living with—that is, climate change. We see every day that a big change has taken place. The Inuit in the north live with that on a daily basis. I thought I would just cover that as a preamble to what I have to say.

Good afternoon, honourable members. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. I'm not sure whether I recognize some people here. I was going to say that I'm glad to see the familiar faces, but I see a very limited number of familiar faces here. Anyway, time goes by and changes take place. The new people come and go.

Honourable members, my name is Charlie Watt, as you know. Until the spring, as the chair mentioned, I was a sitting senator for the region of Inkerman, Quebec. I was on the job for 34 years, as the chair mentioned. I was Canada's only Inuit senator. I was not the only Inuit senator when I first came here. Senator Willie Adams was already here when I arrived in the Senate chamber. I did work with him on a number of different fronts. When he left, when his time to go came, then it was a bit of a lonely place for me as an Inuk speaking fluently in my own language. Willie was also fluent in this language. Willie was a great contributor towards what I have learned within the system.

As Canada's only Inuit senator, I focused on issues important to the Inuit. Arctic sovereignty is a subject that is very important to me and my people. The Senate financed several studies on this issue while I was here. As a matter of fact, the study that we undertook took us, I would say, maybe six to seven years. We concentrated on where the Inuit sit on this whole issue of sovereignty. We looked into domestic rights, which had been built for some years, and also looked at international rights. We came up with three sets of reports that we tabled to the government. I believe you have a copy of those.

The first one was done in the year 2012, and the title of it is “Inuit: Canada’s Treaty Partners or Free Agents?” You might be wondering why we added on the free agents. That indicates where we belong, who we are, who owns the Arctic, who lives in the Arctic, who relies on the Arctic, for social, economic, educational and cultural purposes. As you know, we have lived in the Arctic for many years, long before any other society came to Canada, and I think that is very well known.

When you're facing a subject like Arctic sovereignty, knowing that there is a great deal of interest from outside Canada in the international communities makes you nervous. It makes you nervous that there's going to be an influx of people who have money, political clout, moving in. At times when I see the requests that are made by various countries wanting to become observers, to get observer status within the Arctic Council, I say to myself, “Well, it's observer status now, but it will be more than observer status later on down the road.”

When people come in from different parts of the world and they have money, they will definitely have an influence over what happens to Canada. This worries me a great deal. On that account, I'm here to try to emphasize how important it is for the Inuit people to engage in this process. I see the rationale behind government's intention in terms of the way that they're engineering this and structuring it out to allow seven Arctic countries to be able to highlight what their concerns are, but at the same time they are also dealing with the continental shelfs and so on, by way of trying to extend their jurisdiction beyond their jurisdiction. I'm talking about the seven Arctic countries.

At the same time those people probably will be given an absolute power and the rights to do whatever they want to do if they do manage to succeed in establishing the boundary on the continental shelf. What does that mean to us? It means that the countries from the outside world that have an interest in extracting resources will have an access. They're going to have a large role to play within our society, definitely within the Inuit society, because they're going to be extracting certain things under our feet.

I also would like to mention that the Inuit in the north live not only on the land. This is probably hard to understand. How can any human being live on the ice? As you know, in wintertime when the Inuit are travelling, they travel by ice, by water, and by land.

I was able to get myself a very credible individual from Dalhousie University a few years ago, and we did the mapping of the Inuit trail from the northern Quebec side, which is called Nunavik, on up to Nunavut, on up to the Northwest Passage to Greenland, and also towards Alaska and Siberia. The part that's already completed is on the Canadian side, but we still have to push for countries like Greenland to work something out with the Danish government to be able to do the same thing—map out exactly how they live and how they travel, what they relied on. That information is very important, especially when you're going to be having people coming in from outside Canada, wanting to know. They're probably not even going to care too much about wanting to know. They'll be wanting to extract, take something, and take it home, and turn it into a dollar.

Honourable members, I have a tendency at times to go on and on, and I like to try to limit myself as much as possible, because I only have so much time.

What I wanted to say to you is to stretch it to the point is where hopefully everybody will understand. The Inuit are the backbones of Canada's sovereignty in the Arctic. Another fact, to tell you the truth, is some of my people from the Quebec side, from the Nunavik side, have been moved—the whole family, that is—by boat, by ship, to the Resolute Bay area, into the high Arctic with no facilities, no assistance. They were just literally dropped on the shore under the name of sovereignty.

Those were placed there by the Canadian government, and at that time, during the years of the 1950s, government mobility in the north were limited. They were basically represented by the RCMP at the time. The directions were given by the government, but the RCMP would have to take action to enforce certain things that were given to the RCMP by the government.

As you can see, we have reasons that we want to be a part of it, and not only to be a part in terms of knowing what's happening but also to have a full right to take part. If there is going to be something economically, which there will be, it should not only be going outside of our country. We'd like to tap into those resources, because we need to live, the same as everybody else. We have to survive, so the economy is very important to us.

Right now we have a traditional economy. There is not too much of an economy, other than the traditional economy. The traditional economy is to seek out and do your harvesting in the same sort of similar way that you harvest as a farmer. We don't have farms, but we do go out, whether it's on the boat, whether it's in the canoe, or whether it's on the plane or snow machine or whatever. In the old days it used to be the dog teams. That was the only transportation we had in the old days. That no longer exists. For your information, those dogs were also slaughtered in the early years by the RCMP.

What was the rationale behind the actions that were taken by them? Nobody really wanted to come out publicly and describe exactly why that happened. This isn't really related to Arctic sovereignty, but it's one of the issues that make me tend to believe that we have to be involved in the whole thing.

The Inuit have been present in the Arctic for thousands of years and were sovereign people long before Canada's existence, as I mentioned to you. Since time immemorial we have lived on the land and ice-covered water in the Arctic and used the resources of the land and water to grow as a people. We are deeply connected to not just the land, but also the Arctic Ocean and all the Arctic wildlife. The Inuit are the people who occupied marine areas. The Inuit live on the ice and hunt and travel across it.

Also, we have a different land claims agreement in each of our four land claims regions. The Inuit of Canada are taxpayers. Sometimes people have forgotten that the Inuit too pay taxes. We're not the same as first nations. We have been full-fledged taxpayers from day one up to now.

We always feel as Inuit that we have to also help to put an input into the bigger society with the people who live in the south. Hopefully, the fact that we decided to become taxpayers in the early years will be appreciated by Canada. For that reason, we are contributors to the needs of Canada. On top of that I'd just like to mention to you that before...after I was...no, not really.

Take a look at the Nunavik corporation that I represent, Makivik. We've done well as Inuit, but then again, we still need to do more. We've been able to succeed and have done quite well in the aviation sector. We own the two big airline companies. One is called Air Inuit and the other one is First Air. This coming Friday, we are about to merge another airline company into us, which is Canadian North. Those are the types of arrangements taking place, and we are quite capable of administering and running companies and producing economic opportunities on our own, which are very limited today.

When you look at the payload of goods that flow from the south to the north, it's a one-way flow in terms of economic viability. What's coming out of the north is very limited. For that reason, we are now going through the exercise on the aviation side of amalgamating the two airline companies. There is not enough room for two. This is one of the things we're doing, just to show you what we deal with. We know what we deal with.

When you look at the needs of the many companies that are trying to make ends meet, at times everyone doesn't benefit because there are limited economic opportunities. Let me go a step further.

Am I going a little too slow or spending too much time?

4:35 p.m.

Robin Campbell Associate, Hutchins Legal Inc.

You have a few more minutes.

4:35 p.m.

President, Makivik Corporation

Charlie Watt

Okay.

I would like to mention also that we do have access to an instrument, aside from Makivik Corporation, which is a national organization called ITK. It is also engaged with the Government of Canada on a Crown-relationship basis.

We also have another organization called ICC, the Inuit Circumpolar Council. I was at that meeting just a few months ago in Point Barrow, Alaska. We talked about a number of different issues that are related and are of concern to the Inuit.

We passed a huge number of declarations that we consider to be important and that need to be known by the outside world in order for us to survive. Climate change is a big factor. The food chain is being affected. The security of our food is being affected. We have to become a very heavily innovative people.

At times, we look around to see where we can get help. Maybe the only way that we can get help is if we make it explicitly clear that without money there's very little we can do, even in the north. We need money. Without money, there's very little you can do, as I mentioned.

There was another instrument that I helped build in the very early years, which is the Arctic Council. It allows seven Arctic countries to rotate on the chairmanship of that organization. Where are the Inuit? They have permanent participation. What does that participation mean? It's a token participation. They don't have a very clear voice in terms of being able to use it to get their points across. They're not decision-makers. Even when it comes down to their life, they don't make decisions. Who makes the decisions? It's the seven Arctic countries. We have no role. The only role that we have is tokenism.

That has to change. If we're going to get somewhere and close the gap between understanding what we're dealing with, that instrument has to change. We have to be able to learn to accept the permanent residents of the Arctic. It's their homeland; they have to be part of it. I was even wondering why they aren't calling on them to bring them in as a chair of the Arctic Council.

This is an issue I've been dealing with over the last 15 years. They're trying to make the point. I'm trying to get these different countries, ambassadors and so on, to understand. They do understand it, but they think, if we allow you to have access, what about the others?

Here we are dealing with the question of the Arctic. It's a very sensitive Arctic, as you know. It's a very special area. It's a last frontier. Inuit have lived there for thousands of years, before anybody else, so they must have some understanding of what the Arctic is all about. The rest of the world can learn from that. Now, they leave us on the side and never bother to give us an answer as to where we stand in regard to this whole development.

4:35 p.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you, Senator.

Ms. Campbell, did you want to take a short couple of minutes?

4:35 p.m.

Associate, Hutchins Legal Inc.

Robin Campbell

Absolutely. I'm just—

4:35 p.m.

President, Makivik Corporation

Charlie Watt

I'll make sure that she covers the legal part of it.