Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 27th, 2019

[The Chair, Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)]

I'm calling to order this meeting of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

I want to thank members for making themselves available this afternoon, on what we consider a very pressing issue. We're going to be dealing with the clause-by-clause consideration, pursuant to the order of reference on Monday, September 10, 2018, of Bill S-240, an act to amend the Criminal Code and the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (trafficking in human organs).

With that, we're going to move to clause-by-clause consideration.

(Clause 1 agreed to)

(On clause 2)

MP Wrzesnewskyj, I believe we have several items to discuss here. Please proceed.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That's correct. These are minor changes. The purpose of the changes in three places is to ensure that substitute decision-makers—guardians—do not unwittingly end up criminalized. It's just a small refinement to the wording.

More specifically, the first change would be to amend clause 2 by replacing line 3 on page 2 with the following:

person from whom it was removed or a person lawfully authorized to consent on behalf of the person from whom it was removed did not give in-

The second place where the same change occurs is in replacing line 8 on page 2 with the following:

knowing that the person from whom it was removed or a person lawfully authorized to consent on behalf of the person from whom it was removed

The third change replaces lines 12 to 15 on page 2 with the following:

does anything in connection with the removal of an organ from the body of another person on behalf of, at the direction of or in association with the person who removes the organ, knowing that the person from whom it was removed or a person lawfully authorized to consent on behalf of the person from whom it was removed did not give informed consent

[The Chair]

Is there any debate?

Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sorry, Mr. Chair, I'm seeing this amendment for the first time, which is fair enough. I know we're all working through this. I'm reading the online version, which doesn't have the line numbers, so it was a bit difficult for me to follow what Mr. Wrzesnewskyj was reading out. Maybe, just to be clear, for my—

[The Chair]

Do you want to just do that? You don't have to read the full text, but just where the line numbers are.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Perhaps it would be easier if we had extra copies with the lines numbered.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes. Are there copies of the bill that have the line numbers in? As I said, the online version doesn't have them.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

It would help facilitate with the amendments as we go forward.

[The Chair]

No, I don't believe we have that.

[A voice]

We have it manually, yes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

We're all friends today—at least in this room, so I hear.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Would you like me to repeat it?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

We're on line 3, so this is—

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

The first place where the phraseology is inserted is in line 3 on page 2, and the wording that's inserted after—

[The Chair]

He has the wording. I don't think you have to worry about that.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

In this pencilled version I was given, the lines that are crossed out are the lines that are crossed out in the....

[The Chair]

It's line 8 on page 2, and then lines 12 to 15 on page 2.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

The intent is to, as I mentioned earlier, make sure we don't inadvertently criminalize guardians or substitute decision-makers, people who are legally substitute decision-makers.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, for assisting with the clarification of that.

I have no problem with the substance of this amendment.

As a general point, of course, we know that by amending this legislation it means that it has to go back through the Senate. I just want to say on the record that I appreciate the commitment of everyone and every party that we've been discussing this with to move forward. We are moving forward as a committee, it seems, with amendments, based on the will of the majority, based on the expectation and the assurance that every effort will be made in the House, in the Senate, to make sure this gets done.

I think we understand the importance of doing that. I sure hope that there isn't any funny business that happens afterwards. I would not ever think the people we've been working with across the way would countenance that, but there are many moving parts in the legislative process, so we are moving forward in good faith on an expectation that all of the assurances we've been given by people in the Senate and in the House are for real. I and others will be extremely upset if that doesn't pan out. That means hopefully moving forward with unanimous consent to expedite a third reading and co-operation in the Senate. I'm hopeful we can do that.

On that basis, let's make these amendments, if they can work, and I sure hope they do.

[The Chair]

Thank you, MP Genuis.

MP Alleslev, please.

[Leona Alleslev, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, CPC]

Without contradicting my honourable colleague, I would like to hear from the opposition that the amendments are so significant in structural change, that they're so important, that we need to make these amendments. Ultimately, I feel that there's a potential for the perfect being the enemy of the good.

There's clarification and stuff like that, and we all like to be wordsmiths, but can we argue fully and completely that the substance of this proposed bill cannot go forward, absolutely and unequivocally, because the amendments we need to do here today are so materially significant that we just can't get there from here despite all the work that has already gone into it?

[The Chair]

MP Wrzesnewskyj, please.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I'd just like to say I share the same concerns that Mr. Genuis has expressed. When he said “I and others”, I include myself in the “others”, although once again, and I don't want to belabour this point, I introduced this legislation in its first version 11 years ago. Perhaps more than some realize I have invested a tremendous amount of my efforts and time and political capital to make sure that this moves forward. As we know, this place can be unpredictable at times, but we've done everything that we can to have predictability and to make sure.

This is the fourth time this legislation has come forward. In fact, in this fourth version, Mr. Genuis, as you know, I seconded you. I walked across the aisle and sat next to you in the House to show my support. Ms. Alleslev said “unequivocally”. This isn't a place where we can state anything unequivocally but, my goodness, the efforts that have gone on over 11 years to try to get us to this point, I'm confident we can bring this home. I believe that the amendments make that opportunity all the more real to make sure that this does become the law of the land in this horrific industry of trafficking human organs, and that Canada sets an international example with the legislation.

[The Chair]

Thank you, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Mr. Aboultaif.