Foreign Affairs Committee on May 2nd, 2017

[John McCallum]

Let me just go back to your point about the new Chinese ambassador to Canada.

I've seen the transcript of his interview, and it was somewhat taken out of context by the media reports. That being said, it is very clear that national security concerns are of great importance to the government and that whenever a Chinese investment, or investment from any country, is proposed that carries security concerns, it has to go through rigorous review. That has not changed.

In terms of the rules governing state-owned enterprises in Canada that you mentioned, those had been changed by the previous government. They have not been changed back. That could be an issue in a free trade negotiation, but no decision at all has been made. That point has not been raised by the Chinese with me to date.

In terms of my conversation with President Xi, it was less than five minutes and it was largely scripted, so I did not specifically on that occasion raise the question of those issues that you raised. They are, nevertheless, of critical importance to the government, as I indicated in my remarks. I know that Prime Minister Trudeau raised those issues with his counterpart.

I have served three Canadian Liberal prime ministers in their cabinets, Chrétien, Martin, and Trudeau—Trudeau two—and I know that in each of those cases, they have spoken frankly and freely to their Chinese counterparts about Canadian concerns over human rights and other such matters.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Now with regard to human rights—and you raised your consular responsibilities—we've just learned that a Canadian citizen named Qian Sun was detained during a visit to China on February 19 this year, accused of being a Falun Gong practitioner. She is now being held in the Beijing first detention centre. Ms. Sun is a Canadian citizen whose home is in Vancouver, and she is vice-president of Beijing-Leadman Biochemistry Company Ltd.

Are you aware of her case and will you, within your consular responsibilities, raise her case with the Chinese authorities?

[John McCallum]

I am certainly aware of her case and other cases. I had several briefings on consular cases before I went to China and also before coming back here when I was in China. In all cases, we have regular consular visits to ensure that they are being treated properly, and that is the case in this person's situation.

When I said that I take my consular responsibility seriously, I was being serious. Some of these cases are elevated to a situation where even the leaders will have to deal with them. We are prepared to act where it is required. I am kept informed of the situation in each of those cases.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

In most cases involving human rights persecution in China for religious beliefs or philosophical beliefs or pro-democracy advocacy, it involves the little people, ordinary citizens of China. There is one more notable consular case, a very high-profile case, where the Canadian government, the Prime Minister's office, has called in former prime minister Mulroney, among others, to act.

I wonder if you can give us an update on the case of the Chinese Canadian billionaire, Mr. Xiao Jianhua, who was kidnapped from his residence in Hong Kong by Chinese security agents and transported to China for what seems to be extrajudicial prosecution for perceived white-collar crimes. Again, Canada seems to be doing more for this billionaire than for someone like Qian Sun.

[John McCallum]

I've certainly been briefed on that case, and we certainly have been in touch with that individual. I don't think it's a good idea, either for legal reasons or for the sake of the individuals in question, for me to comment publicly on individual cases. That doesn't always help the person in detention if we broadcast their situation in public. I think in those cases, almost all of the time it is better to proceed in a low-profile way in order to do the best we can to help those individuals.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Although I know that, I certainly receive any number of messages, correspondence, from Canadian citizens who are expressing concern at what they consider to be an imbalance between the Canadian government's pursuit of trade and much less vocal specific or general discussion of Canada's very real concerns about human rights.

[John McCallum]

As I have said, I take that part of my job seriously. There was an issue involving criticism of the Chinese by a number of governments regarding possible torture, and this was something that the Chinese were not happy with us about. That's one very recent example of a case in which Canada has spoken out publicly. I'm telling you that while, in many cases, it doesn't serve the person in custody well, we do speak both privately and publicly on issues that are of concern to Canadians and we, as the government, hold these Canadian values dear and we are not shy to speak out on them.

In particular, we work very hard on any cases involving the death penalty. There are now five death penalty cases pending, and we are working very hard to persuade the Chinese authorities, as we would work hard to persuade any government authorities, including those of the United States, not to exercise the death penalty on Canadian citizens.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

While I certainly agree that there are times to be silent while negotiating the release of political prisoners, wouldn't you say that in the case of a recent high-profile individual who was arrested, detained, tortured with sensory deprivation in a variety of ways, and released to Canada, that Canada should then speak about the completely unacceptable way in which he was mishandled and abused by Chinese authorities?

[John McCallum]

I certainly think that in some cases that would be true. In other cases, there might have been an agreement that was a condition of his release. It will depend on each case.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you, Ambassador.

Mr. Saini, go ahead, please.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Good morning, Ambassador. It's great to see you again.

[John McCallum]

Good morning.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Good afternoon for you, probably.

[John McCallum]

It's evening in China.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I want to ask you a question about the TPP and its demise. As you know and you're probably well aware, geopolitical calculations were made at the time to exclude China from that agreement. Now, as the United States has recused itself from participating in the TPP, there's still a lot of interest in pursuing that agreement without the United States, including by Canada and especially by the Japanese. Now there is great interest between Canada and China to formulate some sort of free trade agreement.

Do you think it would be more ideal to fold in those 10 countries that are still interested, and to have China take over the place of the United States? Or would it be better to have a separate deal with China, and maybe see if there's interest by the remaining countries that were originally part of the TPP?

[John McCallum]

That's a good question. My mandate as ambassador is simple. We are in exploratory talks on a free trade agreement with China. That's a bilateral arrangement. I can answer questions about that if you wish, but that is currently my mandate. If you look more generally, the Canadian government is in favour of free trade as a matter of principle. Speaking as an economist, I think the best free trade agreement is a global free trade agreement under GATT, or what used to be GATT and is now WTO, but that has proven elusive to the world.

Countries have issued various forms of regional free trade agreements, including TPP, which is now seemingly not working. While my mandate is just this bilateral deal, I would say as a matter of principle that Canada is always open to various regional configurations on free trade arrangements, whether the TPP or some new configuration, given that the U.S. is apparently no longer interested. I'm sure that we as a government would be interested in exploring those. In terms of my specific job right now, it's really focusing on the China-Canada bilateral discussions.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

If we look at China's involvement now, you can see that it's evolved into having its own infrastructure bank, and if you look at its initiative within China to expand trade within China and outside of China with the “one belt, one road” initiative, to me it seems as though there is a very clear opportunity for Canadian high-tech companies, whether they're in aerospace or transportation, to somehow have a presence there to make sure that we participate in what I think is a grand venture the Chinese have started.

Do you think that there is some recognition of that, or —

[John McCallum]

I certainly think it's a good idea that Canada agreed, albeit belatedly, to join this infrastructure bank. It would have been better if we'd been a founding member, but that's now water under the bridge. It is good for Canada to be a member of that Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.

We also are going to have participation in the one belt, one road conference, although we're not on the route, but many countries who are not on the route are nevertheless participating. One thing China and Canada have in common is infrastructure. This Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank is a Chinese initiative. We have our own infrastructure bank that is in the process of being set up. As you know, infrastructure has been a major part of the government's program to help create jobs. I think there's great scope for Canadian companies to get involved with the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, and I think there's a community of interest in terms of China and Canada both pushing infrastructure as major initiatives.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Probably the final question I'll ask is a question based on the security of the South China Sea. As you know, there has been tension there. There was a recent announcement or a recent ruling that China does not claim the South China Sea. I'm just wondering, when you look at the tensions that are there, especially the importance of that seaway that $5 trillion U.S. of trade goes down every year, is there any opportunity?

One thing Canada has always been very effective with is its track two diplomacy and making sure that we work behind the scenes to create some sort of dialogue or some sort of agreement. Do you think that in this situation going forward Canada would have or should have a role to play to mitigate the tension that might appear in that area of the world?

[John McCallum]

Our position has always been clear that we want China to respect the international law on this issue. As to whether there could be some quiet diplomacy in which Canada might have an impact, I certainly think that is a possibility. My counterpart, our ambassador at the UN, Marc-André Blanchard, is likely to be visiting China at the time of this one belt, one road conference. He, at the UN, is very seized of these issues, so I think his visit, as well as that of the foreign affairs minister, of course later on, provides opportunity for discussion of these regional issues that are of great importance to Canada, and I do think there's an opportunity for more interaction with China in those areas.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I have just one last quick point.

Just as a comparison with Australia, it seems to me that, in terms of public opinion, the Australian public is a little bit more favourable to having Chinese investment in their economy. They look in a more favourable way at their impact in the world, and as compared with Canada, public opinion is much less here. What can we do, or what do you think your role is in highlighting the strategic importance of having strong relations with China?

[John McCallum]

I sometimes am guilty of what you might call a little bit of Australia envy. They have twice as many Chinese tourists as Canada does, and it's not that much further to get to Canada than to Australia.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

And more students also, I believe.

[John McCallum]

More students as well.... Now I shouldn't be too anxious about that in one sense because they don't have the United States. We have the United States right beside us, so geographically and historically, it's natural for us to do so much trade with the U.S., which Australia doesn't have. But nevertheless, I would say Australia is a role model for Canada in many ways in terms of the strength of the relationship they have created with China.

In terms of your question about public opinion, I think part of the reason I plan to come back to Canada every six to eight weeks is that I think there are as many challenges in Canada as there are in China in terms of getting done what I want to get done. It's to talk to people in Ottawa, to talk to stakeholders across the country, but also to try to talk to Canadians through the media about the importance of China in Canada's future, not shying away from the negative things about human rights, which we were talking about earlier, but being balanced. We have to look at both.

There are clearly important areas where we disagree with China, but at the same time, there's huge opportunity for Canada and for Canadian jobs to have closer ties with China, and I think that's the message that I'm trying to impart.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.