Foreign Affairs Committee on May 2nd, 2017

[Jati Sidhu, Liberal, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I give you full credit. At least you're trying.

Ambassador, you have spoken at length that any potential Canada-China free trade agreement must present tangible economic benefits to Canadians, especially with respect to new jobs. In an interview in March, you noted, “The crucial point will be whether we can persuade the average Canadian or the average Canadian worker whether it’s good for him or her”.

Can you speak a little more about this issue?

[John McCallum]

That certainly sounds like an accurate quotation. I did say that at the end of the day, the government has to determine whether this deal is good for the average Canadian worker and Prime Minister Trudeau has used the same words.

The government is open to freer trade and open borders. In that respect, we have some affinity with China. President Xi Jinping's speech in Davos was along similar lines.

In principle, we support free trade agreements and open borders, but not all Canadians are there. I think the government would only wish to pursue a free trade agreement if we believed that it was good for the average Canadian worker and that, therefore, we would be able to persuade Canadians that this was a good thing. The government has not yet come to a final determination on that. Exploratory talks are still going on. Consultations with industry are still happening.

You can go along two tracks. Free trade exploratory talks are going on and that's good, but at the same time, independent of that, we are pursuing initiatives in tourism, agri-food, forest products, clean tech, and other areas. Not everything waits until the free trade situation is settled. We are simultaneously proceeding in areas that are really important for Canada, and more importantly, really important for Canadian jobs. I think that the more we can produce arrangements with China—like in tourism but also in other areas—that clearly create Canadian jobs, the more open Canadians will be towards closer ties with China.

[Jati Sidhu, Liberal, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I know you touched on a lot of different sectors we can explore. Since you touched on forestry—and I'm from British Columbia—can you speak about one particular sector that you are going to be focusing on or is it a diverse focus on every commodity that's under an FTA?

[John McCallum]

We've been in the business of selling wood to China for a long time. When I was Minister of Natural Resources briefly back in 2005, I remember going on a trip to China to sell Canadian wood. That was 12 years ago. We've been talking about that for a long time and we have made a lot of progress in those years.

There is a model Canadian city made of wood in Tianjin, and we want the Chinese to see that and adopt that in other cities. The history of China is that they don't traditionally build things with wood, so it's an educational process. It's a process of getting them to change their bylaws and various rules to make it easier for them to use more wood.

The good news is that the Chinese are really seized on energy efficiency and environmental targets. Wood is good for that, so we are combining our wood efforts with our environmental efforts. We think there will be further positive progress made in terms of selling more Canadian forest products to China.

However, we also have to ensure that our own forest industry is serious about their engagement with China. Then it's not just on and off depending on the state of the U.S. market, but a serious effort to build relationships and ties with China, as well as the larger market in the U.S. We're working with the Canadian industry and with the Chinese authorities to try to create a situation that generates significant additional demand for Canadian forest products, not just from British Columbia but also from other parts of the country.

[Jati Sidhu, Liberal, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

We have 50% of the wood product coming from British Columbia, so—

[John McCallum]

Yes. I have nothing against British Columbia. All I'm saying is that some of the wood might also come from other places, such as Quebec and other provinces.

[Jati Sidhu, Liberal, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Quebec is number two, yes.

Okay, to question number two, Ambassador, there's a growing protectionist rhetoric across the globe, from our neighbour to the south to Europe. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the importance of Canada's continuing to persistently seek out progressive trade deals with China and emerging markets around the world.

[John McCallum]

I think that's what we're doing. We're having these exploratory talks with China. We've just completed a European free trade agreement. We're having talks with India, and no doubt with other countries around the world, and we want it to be a progressive deal.

Three things we have already mentioned to the Chinese that we would like to see included in a possible free trade deal are a chapter on gender issues, a chapter on environment, and a chapter on labour. Those are important issues that the Chinese haven't necessarily fully dealt with or registered in previous free trade arrangements, but those are things that Canada is pushing for.

[Jati Sidhu, Liberal, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ambassador.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

We'll go to Mr. Fragiskatos, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Congratulations, Ambassador McCallum, on your appointment, and thank you very much for being here today.

[John McCallum]

It's a pleasure.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

The issue of human rights has come up today. You were asked about it, and to your credit you even raised it at the outset in your remarks. Could you talk in general terms about the importance of engaging countries that Canada might have concerns about with respect to human rights, rather than isolating oneself?

Engagement allows for a dialogue; you can put human rights concerns onto the table. At least that's how I see it. Could you speak to that point?

[John McCallum]

Human rights are a central, essential concern of the Canadian government. We talk about that inside the embassy every day. We spend a lot of time on consular issues. It is fundamental to what we do.

On your question of engaging, as I think I said in my comments, you don't not talk to somebody just because you think they might disagree with you. If you did that, you'd never talk to the opposition because they might disagree with you. I think the better strategy is to engage. Sometimes it's when the disagreement is potentially the biggest that there are maximum gains from that engagement. I believe that Prime Ministers Chrétien, Martin, and Trudeau—the ones I have served—have engaged their counterparts on human rights issues and things of that nature, and we are continuing to do that at a lower level.

It is something we are seized of. It is something fundamental to our mission, and it is something we do talk to our Chinese counterparts about, often privately, but sometimes publicly as well. We also talk to like-minded countries all the time.

Canada, I am told, is among the top three in China to raise these issues, but there are certainly many other countries that are as seized of these things as we are, and ambassadors and others in our embassies often talk to each other on the best way to proceed on these things, because by and large, we are like-minded on these issues. If you look at the western countries, we mostly think along similar lines and we often work together to pursue this agenda.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Ambassador, you spoke in your comments about China's turning to green technology. I wonder if you could explore briefly the interest in China in that area, and the impetus. What exactly is motivating China to turn to that?

I understand that obviously there is a great deal of money to be made in the investments they've made in solar technology and wind technology—huge investments. However, they're also experiencing real concerns around climate and air quality, in particular in some of their major cities. Could you speak to that?

[John McCallum]

I live in Beijing now. Beijing is well known around the world for its bad air. The people who live there notice that. Now, to be fair to Beijing, I've been there five weeks and the air has been great. The skies have been blue and the weather has been wonderful. I'm sure that won't always be the case.

Certainly, China has signed onto the Paris agreement. As a country, China has committed to do its bit for global warming. As I said, it's the biggest emitter of CO2 and by far the biggest spender on clean energy. On both counts, China's in there. This is something that I remember Prime Minister Harper always saying, “How can we engage on global warming without China?” I agree with Mr. Harper on that. This is an area in which we must engage with China.

I've also said that just about every minister I've spoken to who has engaged with China is keen. Right at the top of the list for keenness—I'm not saying they're alone, but they're among the leaders for enthusiasm—would be our environment minister and our natural resources minister. The natural resources minister, Jim Carr, is going to China in June. He's going to have meetings on wood and other things. Minister McKenna will be there in December, I think, having had a very proactive visit last year. We are heavily engaged on the environmental-clean tech side of it. Both ministers, one in June and one in December, will be actively engaging China. I think this is one area in which China and Canada are like-minded.

I also think it provides opportunities, including economic opportunities for some of our companies in the clean-tech field and for research between China and our Canadian universities in carbon capture and storage, and also for action in that area. I think that is one of the big areas where more co-operation could bear fruit.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

You've touched on the question I wanted to follow up with, which was opportunities for Canadian firms, so I'll conclude with this. We have a very active and vibrant Chinese diaspora, and obviously with your experience in Markham—

[John McCallum]

I know a bit about that.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

You know it probably better than most.

As we are engaged in exploratory talks now on free trade with China, and as that discussion continues and hopefully materializes into something much more, I wonder if you could speak to the potential for the Chinese diaspora to engage in this process and to help this process along.

[John McCallum]

I think they're central to it. As you said, I know a bit about it. I've said ad nauseam that 40% of my electorates in Markham were Chinese, so I know that community well, and I think they are a very important bridge to China. When groups from Canada visit China, they contain many Chinese people who are doing business in China, but often they're also going back to their hometowns, so it has both a personal side and a business side. It's not just Chinese people who do business with China, but I think they are an important part of the equation, and I think they are very active in this area.

I also think that whatever branch of the Chinese community these Canadian Chinese come from, they are almost all enthusiastic about stronger ties between Canada and China. By and large, that is a consensus in the Chinese Canadian community, so I think they agree with what we're doing in terms of stronger ties, and I think they are a big part of the solution to actually producing those stronger ties.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ambassador McCallum.

[John McCallum]

It was my pleasure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Kmiec, please.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you for being here today.

I have a lot of questions based on the conversation around the table. I'm going to cover Hong Kong, the free trade agreement, religious rights in China, and the THAAD missile defence system deployed in South Korea today by the American government. Then, if I have time, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about the regional comprehensive economic partnership.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

We'll do all that in five minutes.