Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

All right.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Hélène Laverdière]

Thank you very much.

I would like to talk about Hurricane Irma again. I remember the first case I dealt with when I was at the consulate. I was in the office that worked with China, and one of the most important parts of our work was to reassure families here in Canada.

My office has received many calls about Irma. Some people said they were on hold for an hour on the department's phone line. Those calls were from people here in Canada whose family was affected by the hurricane. Some people said they were sent to voice mail.

I know there is usually a response centre here in Ottawa to answer questions from persons in difficult situations and from Canadian families and friends to give them some information and reassure them.

We have seen media reports indicating that many people were dissatisfied with the service provided by Global Affairs Canada.

How did the mechanism work? Was the response centre set up quickly?

It really seems there were some bottlenecks. Have you learned any lessons for the future? Where do you see room for improvement?

Thank you.

[Heather Jeffrey]

We fully appreciate how difficult these situations are for Canadians caught up in them and sometimes even more difficult for their loved ones back home who don't have any information on how they're doing and who feel powerless to help them. These situations create a high level of anxiety, and we completely understand that. You're right; it is part of our job to reach out to those Canadians, to deal with families here in Canada who are concerned and friends who call us, and also to deal with Canadians directly in the field.

As you mentioned, we have set up a fairly elaborate structure. We have the emergency watch and response centre, which operates 24-7, but in the case of a significant mass emergency like the ones we just experienced, we set up an emergency call centre that's also staffed 24-7 and has very large numbers of officers answering phones, answering enquiries, passing on information. You've experienced it yourself. It is a beehive of activity. We have hundreds of trained volunteers who come in to do that work after hours to keep that response going, and we had a very prolonged period of almost 28 days this month where we had these centres going.

In the staffing of that centre and its ability to take calls, all the information we have, the metrics from our system, are that it was adequately staffed and that there were not significant wait times. I appreciate what you're saying that some people might have had a different experience and that's part of the lessons learned follow-up that we have. We believe that calls are being answered in a very timely way.

What was much more problematic for people who were concerned, relatives on this end, was, in the initial phases of this disaster, the lack of communication on the ground. These islands did not have developed communications. Even though they might have been doing well and were simply isolated and unable to communicate back, it was difficult for us to reach them and impossible for their families to reach them except sporadically, especially with the loss of power, etc.

Part of our lessons learned is reviewing all these situations and trying to look at new and creative ways to access people as these storms progress. We mobilized a whole variety of different responses that we haven't necessarily had to use. We had evacuations by boat. We had small, fixed-wing aircraft, float planes. Many different types of responses were mobilized, all means to reach people and get them off the islands. I mentioned using local radio stations. We had people broadcasting different departure and evacuation times.

I think this is a really important role. We place the highest priority on that communications link, and we focus on it.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Hélène Laverdière]

Thank you very much.

If it were possible to have any statistics you may have on wait times at the call centre, it would be appreciated.

[Heather Jeffrey]

We'd be happy to.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Hélène Laverdière]

Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you. Is this a 10-minute round? Six minutes, that's okay. I'll probably still run out of time while I'm mid-sentence.

Thanks for your answers. When we left off you were describing this process of determinations for the advice you give in engaging at a political level, and obviously it's up to the politicians to decide.

We talked about how there's a high volume of cases and a higher volume of complex cases coming out of China. At the same time, we are in this process of free trade negotiations. We understand maybe extradition negotiations, maybe not. I'd like to understand how those things fit together when we have ongoing consular cases and at the same time we have other kinds of negotiations. Would the government say they need to start treating Canadian citizens with more respect if we're going to go forward here, or is the intention of the government to put those cases to the side and just focus on the negotiations, be they trade- or extradition-related and then leave the consular issues on a separate track?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I can assure you that from a departmental perspective, we view our duty to assist Canadians as one of the pre-eminent things that we do as a department. It's the part of our department that is the most public. It's the one where we directly provide services to Canadians. When we look at each case and determine that this engagement is in the interest and well-being of a particular client, that is seen as a pre-eminent duty.

In all cases where we see Canadians being mistreated, where we believe that raising those cases at different levels with different interlocutors is in the best interest of that client.... In some cases, it might not be in the best interest of the client to raise it at the political level, as it politicizes the case and might put them in further jeopardy, and that's an assessment we make with our mission on the ground. But where we believe that the security and safety of Canadians is at risk, we don't hesitate to raise cases, and it's done based on their well-being.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You are speaking about that issue at the departmental level in terms of what the department is doing. To your knowledge, in terms of what's happening at the political level, is the government saying to countries like China that there needs to be movement in our approach to consular cases before we pursue certain other areas of co-operation? Or is the policy to put those issues to one side in the consular bucket, and instead focus on these other issues in direct discussions?

Is that something you are aware of or can comment on?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I am not going to talk about particular cases, but I will say that, generally, where we believe that Canadians are at risk and that interventions at a particular level or by particular interlocutors are going to assist in the well-being of that client, there would be no hesitation in going forward. Consular services are a high priority for us.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

That's work you are undertaking. Maybe you can't speak to the way in which these political decisions are made, whether or not to prioritize these things in the context of a bilateral relationship, but I appreciate your sharing the particulars of the departmental role and priorities.

You talked about an agreement negotiated with China. I just want to be clear, because my understanding is that there are still Canadian citizens who are dual nationals in China who are not receiving consular access. Is that the case?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Yes. That is the case.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

[Heather Jeffrey]

I think the MOU we put in place led to significant improvement in our ability to access clients, but our ability to access Canadians there is not universal.

[Lisa Helfand]

In some instances, the Chinese government does not recognize people to be Canadian citizens who we believe are Canadian citizens, and that's where there is sometimes a problem.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Maybe you don't want to comment on this, but I think that's the situation of Mr. Celil, who was taken from Uzbekistan to China.

It is striking to me—and I will just briefly editorialize—that we can speak about a country that is improving and yet is still not allowing consular access to Canadian citizens. They're clearly out of step with their international obligations, yet we're pursuing other aspects of the relationship.

I want to ask about ransoms, and I want to clarify what Mr. Gwozdecky said. What I heard you say was that there isn't any empirical evidence that the decision to pay ransoms increases the probability of subsequent abduction. You said that people hypothesize based on the intuitive logic of the situation that maybe paying ransoms negatively contribute, but there's no empirical evidence.

Did I understand what you were saying on that point?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

What I said was that we have anecdotal evidence in the sense that we have isolated incidents where we have learned that money, from other parties, received by an organization through ransom contributed to its ability to launch further kidnap-for-ransom operations. However, in terms of whether there is a global database that shows, over a period of time, great number and how they might create a trend, we don't have that.

We do have a sufficient amount of anecdotal evidence that suggests to us that there is a direct linkage.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Hélène Laverdière]

Ms. Vandenbeld, you have the floor.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to ask for some clarification on something brought up peripherally by Mr. O'Toole and Ms. Laverdière. It's around this idea of the crown prerogative. The crown prerogative, as far as I understand it, is not unlimited. It can be limited by legal obligations under Canadian law, international treaties, or constitutional obligations surrounding the charter. Am I correct?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Yes. That is the case.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

In that case, there are those who are saying that because of the crown prerogative the decision to provide consular services, or when or how to provide them, involves some discretion. You mentioned the need for flexibility and adaptability. Some people are saying we need to put this in legislation, and there's talk of a protection charter or some kind of a legislated mandate to provide consular services. Because it is currently prescribed by the Constitution and the Charter of Rights and by international conventions, would that make a difference in the day-to-day application of the crown prerogative?

[Heather Jeffrey]

In our day-to-day allocation of the crown prerogative, in consular services we use all the options at our disposal to try to assist Canadians in the way that is going to be most beneficial to them. I don't see that the legislation of that would result in our making additional efforts beyond what we normally do. The fact that we have the crown prerogative allows us to be flexible in our choice of the means and mechanisms by which we assist in each individual case, but the overall level of service, which is to assist Canadians to the full extent of our ability, is a constant part of our policy.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

What would the impact be? What would change if there were a legislated mandate?

[Heather Jeffrey]

It's difficult for me to speculate on that. It's a bit hypothetical. I can assure you that we look at every case and try to find every possible avenue to assist Canadians. I don't feel that we need additional legal authority to provide additional services. I believe we're doing that to the full extent of our ability, and that's certainly something our consular officers take great pride in.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Without going into individual details, can you tell me if you're aware of any cases where Canadians are denied consular services under this crown prerogative?