Foreign Affairs Committee on March 27th, 2018

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

If I may, Mr. Drake, the Prime Minister's decision to deviate from past practice with respect to hostage situations has taken one tool out of the tool kit of whole-of-government approach. If there is no discussion of ransom payment or payments to third party facilitators, the issue of rescue missions becomes more important. Otherwise, families have no hope. The whole-of-government department would provide an opinion to the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's Office on whether to proceed or not, based on the risk assessment.

Is that how it would work?

[David Drake]

That's right. We would provide a risk assessment to the Prime Minister—to any prime minister, of course.

I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here, because first of all, my job is not to defend the Prime Minister; my job is to testify to you as a public servant, and of course I am restricted on what I can say in terms of operational secrecy.

As an example that is more general and not connected to the case per se, let me talk about the Philippines, where large parts of the country are basically ungoverned or not under the control of the Philippine government. That is a major issue, and the consent of the government is not necessarily the issue.

What I can tell you, though, is that all options are always on the table. All options are on the table, and I don't think there is deviation on this from from one government to another.

I'm trying to be helpful within the limits I have.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

I appreciate the position you're in. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you, Mr. O'Toole.

We'll go to Mr. Levitt, please.

[Michael Levitt, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you very much for your testimony. I think this question's going to be more for Ms. Jeffrey and Mr. Drake.

We heard from a previous witness, and it was echoed by some of the other witnesses, that the consular service fees collected from Canadians far outstrip the budget for consular services. I think the argument was being made that Canadians aren't getting their money's worth from the fees collected.

I've looked through the available documentation from the department and I don't see that reflected. Can you speak to the point and provide some clarity to the committee? Do you have recent figures that you can speak to? How do these things balance out?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Yes, I can speak to that.

Since 1995 there's been a consular service fee, as you know, collected as part of the passport fee. It's $25 per passport. We're required by Treasury Board to report annually on the cost of consular service in relation to the fee, and the restriction, of course, is that the amount spent on services should never be less than the fee collected. If that were the case, we would have to look at the fee structure.

What we found, though, is that over the years the cost of delivering consular service actually exceeds significantly the amount that we collect. The balance of that is covered from the department's resources.

For example, in 2016-17 we collected $105 million in fees; however, we spent $131 million in delivering services. We foresee that trend continuing and that gap widening in the future.

There is no surplus in terms of what's been collected. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

[Michael Levitt, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Would you say there's been any difference in the way that's been handled or in the way that equation has balanced out between this government and the previous government's, or has this been more or less the operating structure related to fees since they started being collected?

[Heather Jeffrey]

The methodology has remained constant since the inception of the fees.

[Michael Levitt, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I want to switch topics a little bit and talk about Canadians on death row. An issue that's come up is what the government should be doing for them, how we treat that sort of a situation, and whether the government seeks clemency for Canadians on death row at all. We obviously don't have capital punishment in Canada, nor do we condone capital punishment.

Can you speak a little bit to what the government's policy is in terms of requesting clemency for Canadians abroad? Again, in the way the current government is dealing with the issue of seeking clemency, has there been any change or shift from the previous government's approach? Has there been any change in that policy?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Yes. In 2016, Minister Dion affirmed that Canada's policies do oppose the death penalty and that we will undertake consular interventions in all cases where Canadians are being subjected to the death penalty abroad. This includes active monitoring of cases, advocacy with local officials as appropriate, and consultations with legal representatives to ensure that Canadians' interests are represented on all those cases.

[Michael Levitt, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Drake, do you have anything to add on either of these points?

[David Drake]

It's not my area, so you have the right person here. Thank you.

[Michael Levitt, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I think I'll pass to one of my colleagues, if they would like to use the balance of the time.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I would be happy to. Thank you, Mr. Levitt.

Assistant Commissioner Malizia, has your specialized unit ever engaged in negotiations around ransoms?

[A/Commr James Malizia]

The RCMP is structured to provide family liaison officer support, investigative liaison support, and ongoing advice through trained negotiators. The negotiators will work with family members who may have chosen to pursue a ransom request or who may be engaged by terrorists on the question of ransom. The RCMP will work with family members to help them navigate through that process.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I see. You're saying that should a family choose to pay a ransom, the RCMP will help facilitate through this complicated process.

[A/Commr James Malizia]

We won't help them facilitate the payment of ransom, but what we will do is advise them on the risks associated.

For example, the person who is at the other end of the telephone may or may not be a legitimate third party interlocutor. If we're aware that this person is not, we will advise the family accordingly, because it could be a simple fraud. If there is anything we feel they could potentially say that would impact the safety of the hostage, then we'll advise the family accordingly and help them work through that.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Just to have absolute clarity, because there is a legal prescription against providing ransoms to terrorist organizations—

[A/Commr James Malizia]

Yes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

—and because our primary interest should and ought to be to save a Canadian's life, your specialized unit will help the families or other interlocutors in negotiations. After all, they were kidnapped for the purpose of a ransom. That's a critical component of negotiations. Your specialized unit will help facilitate in those negotiations.

[A/Commr James Malizia]

We will continue to work with family members who have been chosen as the main spokespersons in those situations to be able to navigate through the multiple conversations they would have with an individual or terrorist on the other side of the line.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Concerns have been raised that there is an—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Your time is up.

Ms. Laverdière, go ahead.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the three of you for joining us today to testify and answer our questions.

I don't want to be abrupt, but I will ask my questions quickly, as I probably won't have the floor again.

When someone is kidnapped, how do you decide who will assume primary responsibility in the case—for example, Global Affairs Canada or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police?

[A/Commr James Malizia]

The primary responsibility always belongs to Global Affairs Canada, which coordinates the process with all the other agencies. In the case of a kidnapping, the department determines what partners, or what other agencies, could help it, as appropriate.