Evidence of meeting #91 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was case.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Heather Jeffrey  Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Emergency Management and Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
David Drake  Director General, Counter-Terrorism, Crime and Intelligence Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Commissioner James Malizia  Assistant Commissioner, National Security and Protective Policing, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Okay.

When kidnappings occur, do you collaborate with people on the ground. For example, if someone is kidnapped in Vietnam, do you work with local people other than those who are part of police or military forces, or intelligence services?

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Counter-Terrorism, Crime and Intelligence Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Drake

That totally depends on the situation. There are a number of possible answers.

Truly, it really depends. So much depends on what we're actually facing. Are we facing a terrorist demand in which there are more than ransom issues at play? Do they want, for example, the freedom of captives or prisoners, or something like that? There are different things.

We quickly try to determine the essence of the issue. Of course, we will deal with any legitimate person on the spot as required, but it does require a very careful analysis. That's why we have specialized people on the consular side for the non-terrorist side and other specialized people who work very closely with them in my area who specialize in terrorist kidnappings, because they are different.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Okay.

Thank you very much.

If you were unable to solve a kidnapping case and you decided to close the file, what kind of information do you give to the family so that it would not feel completely abandoned?

4:35 p.m.

A/Commr James Malizia

The investigation follows its course, and the case remains open until it is solved. The role played by our liaison officers is important because they are the ones who stay in contact with families to keep them abreast of what is happening on the ground.

We learn lessons from every kidnapping case, as each of them is unique and cannot be compared to others. One of the things we have learned is that we have to communicate more with family members. We sometimes obtain from third parties or even other countries confidential information that we cannot disclose. We still have to find a way to communicate part of the content.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

To what extent does the lack of diplomatic relations complicate your life, if only when it comes to dealing with current consular files or more difficult kidnapping cases?

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Emergency Management and Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Heather Jeffrey

I can answer that.

I think that with each case we look at all the potential avenues that are on the table. When we don't have a mission in the country, sometimes it's covered from a neighbouring country. Sometimes we work through our—

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Pardon my interruption, but I'm talking about countries with which we have no diplomatic relations, and not about countries where we have not established a diplomatic mission.

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Emergency Management and Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Heather Jeffrey

In countries where we have closed our missions—for example, in North Korea or Iran—we work through protecting powers, through a like-minded state that's agreed to serve as our representative on the ground. We also work through many different avenues. For example, in relation to your previous question, when there are no local authorities on the ground or when we need to find alternative avenues of communication, we can work through international organizations or non-governmental organizations. As an example, the International Committee of the Red Cross is an effective advocate on behalf of those who are in detention.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Hélène Laverdière NDP Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

When victims of kidnapping are freed, are they and their family offered psychological support?

If so, who provides that support and in what form?

4:40 p.m.

Director General, Counter-Terrorism, Crime and Intelligence Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Drake

It's a good question. In fact, that support is available at the provincial level. Of course, psychological services and so forth are provided in Canada at that level. What we do at the federal level is to connect up with the provincial level to make sure the right people are connected. That's our job, and we pay a lot of attention to that aspect.

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Emergency Management and Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Heather Jeffrey

I would just add that for all consular services, one aspect of consular modernization and in our approach that is different now from what it was 20 years ago is related to safe arrival back in Canada. When people return from traumatizing experiences abroad, whatever those might have been, it's very important when they arrive at an airport in Canada that they have appropriate links made with the local social services, such as welfare services, a shelter, or a network that they need. That's part of our handover and reception process back here at home.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bob Nault

Thank you very much, Madame Laverdière.

Just to get some clarity for the question that Mr. Levitt asked, the number you're using is $131 million for consular services. Does that include the RCMP's budget for the work they do, or is that separate? One of the things we're going to have to get our head around is that apparently there were 265,000 consular affairs cases opened this last fiscal year, or the previous fiscal year. That seems a lot of work for $131 million, but at the same time, is the uniqueness of what the RCMP does included in that number?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Emergency Management and Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Heather Jeffrey

No, the RCMP's costs for those kinds of security investigations are accounted for separately. We're referring to the cost of what Global Affairs delivers through its platform abroad and its call centres here at headquarters, for example. The majority of the 278,000 cases are more routine in nature, such as 204,000 passport requests and 26,000 citizenship requests. There are about 6,400 a year of more complex cases of Canadians in distress, and those would occupy the more focused efforts of our team.

March 27th, 2018 / 4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bob Nault

Would it be possible, Deputy Commissioner, to get a number as to what it costs the RCMP for the work you do vis-à-vis the more critical hostage-taking and the like?

4:40 p.m.

A/Commr James Malizia

Certainly, Mr. Chairman.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bob Nault

Okay. Thank you very much.

I'll go to Mr. Saini, please.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Good afternoon, and thank you very much for being here today.

Some witnesses who appeared before the committee have raised concern about specific provisions in the Privacy Act that prevent the government from sharing information with lawyers who are trying to represent their clients. Can you comment on that, and is there any way that you feel we could maybe improve the legislation to allow the legal representatives the information they need?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Emergency Management and Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Heather Jeffrey

I can speak to the privacy aspect. The Privacy Act obviously is designed to protect the interests of Canadians. We take our accountabilities very seriously under the act and we will not release without their consent information about the cases of individuals or their circumstances and how they're being served. That includes release to family members and can include in some cases release to their lawyers. The issue of the consent of the client is of overriding importance in the act, and that's what we respect.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

When you're talking about the client, you're talking about the person who has been kidnapped or the person who is not available or not in contact. I'm just trying to see whether there is a better way, where we can improve it, because we're talking about people who might not have the ability to provide consent, yet their family members are worried. We're getting into this legal limbo where you can't get the consent because the person has either been kidnapped or has been prevented from contacting someone. Do you know what I mean?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Emergency Management and Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Heather Jeffrey

I'll let David respond to the kidnapping cases. For other kinds of consular cases, including people in detention and regular circumstances, we always try to obtain their consent, because in many cases they do not wish to have their cases discussed with members of their family or even with legal counsel, and that's something that can occur—

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

How do you know that?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Emergency Management and Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Heather Jeffrey

That's why we have to establish contact.

David, do you want to speak to how that's handled in cases when you aren't able to do so?

4:40 p.m.

Director General, Counter-Terrorism, Crime and Intelligence Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Drake

Each case is different. It hasn't really been so much of a problem in the much smaller number of cases that we deal with. We do deal very carefully on a privacy basis with the families themselves.

As you say, when someone is kidnapped, we don't have a contact with them. We're not going to ask them in the family call whether they are going to concede to a legal nicety. However, we do make sure that we follow the privacy rules very carefully, and generally it works. We find ways of getting this done, but again,, in my case we're talking about a much smaller number.

In your case, Heather, in most cases you were able to get some form of consent.

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Consular, Emergency Management and Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Heather Jeffrey

Yes. There are also provisions in the legislation whereby if the safety and security of the client, the Canadian who is at risk, is under imminent threat and their best interest is served by sharing information, then we do so. The act is structured for doing that, but the threshold is high in order to protect privacy.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

In cases in which Canadians have been accused of committing a crime, how do you interact with the local enforcement to make sure the evidence is based on fact? Obviously there are going to be certain legal jurisdictions with a more rigorous rule of law than others. How does that process work?