Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 17th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you for the point of order, Dr. Fry.

Mr. Genuis, just one second, please.

There's an additional argument to be made here, which is that it's impossible for translation and interpretation to follow if members talk over the top of witnesses, and vice- versa. I would just encourage all members to please ask their questions and then wait for the answer, just like we do in the House of Commons.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, just on that point of order, I hope members will understand that this is my time. I have limited time, and I'm asking a specific question that the minister isn't answering. If she's not prepared to answer the question, I'll move on.

However, if we can go back into the questioning, Minister, you're attacking the Conservatives. Fair enough. You disagree with some of the things we've done. Aid levels as a percentage of gross national income were higher under Stephen Harper consistently.

The question is, what do you mean when you say “increase”? Is it a real increase, a nominal increase or an increase as a percentage of GNI? Which is it?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

We have already increased international assistance. We did so in 2018 when we committed an additional $2 billion. We did so this year with an additional $1.1 billion. We will continue to increase that. It is something that—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, respectfully, the question just isn't being answered, so I want to just ask one brief question.

Why aren't you the governor on the AIIB? Why is the Minister of Finance the governor on that development bank uniquely, and not you?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Genuis, I'm afraid we're out of time. I've given you extra time because of the point of order that was raised. We can circle back to that in a second round of questions.

The floor goes now to Dr. Fry for five minutes, please.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much, Minister, for coming. It's a difficult job, especially since COVID-19 and that we now have to look at extra funding to help all of the problems that COVID-19 has inflicted, especially on the poorest countries.

You said earlier that there is obviously climate change and poverty causing people to be on the move. Conflict is also the third reason that people are on the move. You've talked about Africa. I know that the government has decided that Africa is one of the poorest continents and has the poorest nations there, but I wonder if you have ever recognized, looked at or worked with Europe through the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe?

They're 57 nations, and many of them are extremely poor because they are post-Soviet nations. They don't have a lot of income, and they don't have a lot of resources. I know that you're very interested in the feminist agenda, and I know that the OSCE requires a lot of help with that agenda. Specifically, hundreds of thousands of people who are on the move in Europe are facing extreme poverty, violence and trafficking. I know that Canada is not as involved as it would be, because we all think that nations on the continent of Europe and in South Asia must be rich and they don't fit the mould, but they do.

I was just going to ask you if you feel that it would be possible for your office to look at an OSCE component to what you do in future, because I think you would find that it is needed a lot in some of the poorer countries.

Secondly, tell me what you are doing in your portfolio with dealing with refugees and migrants, because women and children are missing in parts of Europe and in parts of the world where they are living in camps.

You've talked about education. I'm interested in knowing how you are hoping to help that lost generation of children who don't have any access at all to education.

If you can elaborate on that, I'd be pleased. Thank you.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Certainly. Thank you very much, Dr. Fry, for those questions.

I would note that, when it comes to Europe, you're correct. Many countries in Europe are high-income countries that wouldn't qualify for official development assistance, and Canada's international assistance is governed by the ODAAA that requires us to focus our assistance efforts on the poorest and to have poverty alleviation be central to the work we do.

However, when it comes to Europe, Canada has a very significant bilateral program in Ukraine. We work very closely with Ukraine on a number of different issues. Gender equality obviously features very prominently within that as well as governance and humanitarian response, particularly in the eastern part of Ukraine.

I would also note that we recently provided $450,000 in humanitarian assistance to Armenia through the Red Cross. There are instances where we do provide international assistance to countries that are eligible in the European region. We obviously work very closely with our colleagues and friends in the European Union on projects right around the world.

When it comes to the work that Canada does with refugees, we work extraordinarily closely with the UN High Commission for Refugees. We have projects right around the world to ensure that refugees have access to basic services and their basic rights.

When it comes to education, this is something that is extraordinarily important. I remember a conversation that I had right at the outset of the pandemic with Filippo Grandi, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, about the number of children who were out of school because of COVID-19. At one point, there were 1.5 billion children. We talked about the fact that many refugee children were never in school to begin with. That's one of the reasons the Prime Minister has mandated me to lead an international campaign to increase access to education for displaced children, either refugee or internally displaced children. This is something that we're working on with partners like UNHCR, and through our contribution to the Global Partnership for Education working group, as well as organizations like Education Cannot Wait, to ensure that we are providing education for children in crisis situations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Madam Minister.

I now give the floor to Mr. Bergeron for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you, Minister. Two and a half minutes is a very short time. So I will get right to the point, so that you can provide an answer.

You mentioned the impact of COVID-19 on international support and assistance operations. As you know, this committee will focus on vulnerable populations and the effects of the pandemic on these populations around the world. Could you expand on that issue?

Can we assume that countries will, albeit not maliciously, divert funds normally intended for international development to fight the pandemic?

How will the industrialized nations react to such a situation in terms of international assistance?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

As you mentioned, the pandemic has had a very significant impact on developing nations. I recall a discussion with a colleague from Africa. He told me that the vulnerable population there had reached the point of deciding whether they were going to starve to death or die from COVID-19. We have seen some extremely difficult situations.

With respect to development programs, Canada is currently working with its partners to ensure that our plans and objectives are being met despite the pandemic. That's why the $350 million will provide some overlap this year. This will ensure that the objectives of these projects are carried out.

Of course, we have been working internationally on the issue of debts and the interest payments on those debts. We kind of put things on hold so that the governments of developing nations could use the money intended for interest payments to address the health situation in their countries. Canada is currently making sure that the response to the pandemic is an effective one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Madam Minister and Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

The next round goes to Ms. McPherson.

You have two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

I want to express my disappointment that the minister won't give us some of the numbers that we require. I don't want to be argumentative, but hopefully those numbers can be shared with us.

If the goal is 0.7% and we can't find out where we are or how we're getting there, what the path is, it makes it very difficult for parliamentarians to do their job, to hold us on that path, I guess. I don't want to waste my time on this because I don't think we're going to get an answer.

I have two questions, very quickly.

The small and medium-sized organization funding, we know, was oversubscribed the last time it was run. We know that we are waiting for it to be implemented again. Perhaps the minister could talk a little bit about when that's going to happen. Also, she did speak about the international campaign for education for refugees and displaced children. Could she give us some sense of when we can expect news on that, what that will look like, something that we can give to the sector to inform them of when that will happen?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Certainly. Thank you for that, Heather.

I'm happy to have Shirley jump in at the end to answer some of the questions on the numbers. I think she probably has them now.

With regard to the campaign for education for displaced children, January 2021 is when we're looking to launch that. We have been having conversations with our partners in the sector, but that is the date that you can expect. We'll be happy to share information as it becomes available.

As for the small and medium-sized organizations, very soon is what I can say. We're just finalizing the details, but that will be coming out very shortly. We recognize how important this is. It's been a key priority both for my predecessor and for me to make sure that we continue to support small and medium-sized organizations and the important work they do.

I don't know if you want me to turn it over to Shirley to answer your previous question.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

If we could get some of the numbers sent to the committee, that would be awesome. Then we won't have to waste time on that.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Sure.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

The last thing that I hopefully have a few seconds to touch on is in terms of direction and control. We know how important it is that we are changing some of the regulations around direction and control for the sector. We've been pushing very hard on that.

Can you tell me what your plans are in terms of supporting direction and control? We know right now that organizations spend up to $1 million on compliance, and that's money that is not going to help the world's poorest people. What's happening in terms of the direction and control piece?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Be very quicky, Minister; then we can circle back in the final round.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Okay.

Thank you, Heather, for that question. I note that Caroline Leclerc, our director of partnerships, is on the line. Perhaps she could speak to that a little bit more broadly.

This is something we have been pushing internally within the department, to make sure that we hear and understand the concerns of partners and are working to streamline processes.

If there's time, I would turn it over to Caroline.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

I think we'll have to leave it there, just in the interest of fairness. We have two more question sessions in this round. Then we'll go to a full third round.

Mr. Chiu, welcome to the committee. The floor is yours for five minutes.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for making yourself available. Our job is to hold the government to account. Sometimes we have to ask very difficult questions.

Minister, did you or your staff have any discussion with anyone regarding the export of the L3Harris Wescam drone system this past spring or summer?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

No.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Well, that's a straight no. Good. Thank you.

In July, in response to China's enactment of the Hong Kong national security law, Canada implemented a ban on the export of sensitive military equipment to Hong Kong. Would the minister be able to provide this committee with a list of the equipment that was prevented from being exported to Hong Kong and how much it was worth?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chiu. I'm the Minister of International Development, so I don't actually have a line of sight into those areas.