Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 24th, 2020

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Well, let me just frame the discussion on that, Mr. Chong.

As you know, Canada, under your government and all previous governments, has been exporting equipment to NATO countries. Canada has one of the most robust export control regimes in the world. Under our government, we signed the Arms Trade Treaty—and I must say to Canadians who are watching that, sadly, you voted against that—where we enhanced our export control regime.

What I would say about the exports you are referring to is that I look at them on a case-by-case basis, as the law requires me to do, which is to look at all export permit requests on a case-by-case basis.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Minister, I guess what's so confounding about your approval of these exports is that last year, in the fall, in September or October, your government suspended arms exports to Turkey. That was reversed in the spring, when you allowed Canadian drone systems made by WESCAM industries of Burlington, Ontario to export these drone systems for the Baykar drone, and then subsequently you resuspended arms exports. That's why I ask the question.

High-tech drones are the reason why Azerbaijan defeated Armenia. There is no doubt that drones shifted the balance of power and made a huge difference in the conflict. The Canadian drone systems used in the South Caucasus by Azerbaijan were instrumental in Azerbaijan defeating Armenia, and it was your government—you in particular, Minister—that approved the export of Canadian drone systems.

Minister, you've said recently that Canada supports the Armenian people during this most difficult time, but what's confounding is how you can say that you're supporting the Armenian people, when you approved the export of these drone systems that were so instrumental in Azerbaijan defeating Armenia.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Let me be very clear to you and to Canadians, Mr. Chong. First of all, you're talking about cameras that were exported. That's the Canadian equipment you're referring to, I suppose, with respect to that.

To show that our export control regime works.... Mr. Chong, as you know, the moment I was made aware that the end-use certificate was violated and of the allegations that were made, I immediately suspended the relevant permits. I think the steps that have been taken by Canada have been applauded even by the Prime Minister of Armenia. You probably saw his public statement that says he welcomed Canada's suspension and he wished other countries would follow suit.

When I say that I was talking with Armenia, I've been in contact with the minister almost every day during the conflict. I have been talking to the Secretary-General of the United Nations. I spoke to the Secretary-General of NATO. I spoke to the leadership of the OSCE. I spoke to my colleagues in Europe to see what more we can do.

I think, with respect to the export control regime, as you know well, Mr. Chong, it is important to say that under the law I am required to look at permits when they come to me. I look at them on a case-by-case basis with the evidence that is presented to me, and when there's a violation, the good thing with the Arms Trade Treaty—which we should all be happy about, you and all the members—is that foreign affairs ministers currently and in the future are bound now by a much higher standard, which as a lawyer I commit to uphold in not only the spirit but the letter of the law.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I just have a comment before my time is up. Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

You have about a minute and a half.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Okay.

It was clear in your testimony yesterday in front of the Canada-China committee that the government has already adopted a new framework for dealing with China, and there will be no formal release of this framework.

I've been following this file closely since September. I have to tell you, Minister, with respect, that I couldn't tell that there was a new framework that had already been put in place, and neither could many people who follow this file. I had noted a change in rhetoric in October, but it seems to me the new framework is somewhat contradictory.

In September, when supposedly the new framework had been in place, you indicated you were no longer pursuing free trade talks with China; but Ambassador Barton said, on the same day, to an audience in Edmonton that included the Chinese ambassador to Canada, that Canada needs to do more in China and that we need to broaden trade with China.

The other thing that seems confounding about this new framework is that I don't understand how any new framework cannot include a plan to deal with China's foreign influence operations here, nor do I understand how any new framework does not include a plan to make a decision on Huawei.

Minister, the new framework, I think, needs some more work, because if I don't understand it, I can tell you the Chinese certainly will not understand it. I think it needs to be a lot clearer and a lot more consistent if Canada is going to have a clear, consistent voice with respect to China on the world stage.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Give a very brief answer, please, Minister. There may be a chance to circle back.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

As I said, China of 2020 is not China of 2016 or even of 2018, Mr. Chair.

I think what I said, Mr. Chong, is that we've seen our position evolve in light of this situation and I think we've been smart and firm in our position—I said that in the House today—whether it comes to the Uighurs or whether it comes to Hong Kong. I've outlined places where we're going to challenge China, places where we're going to coexist with China, and some other areas where we're going to co-operate, for example with respect to climate change.

I said that what will be driving us is interest, principles, values, human rights, and then obviously some rules and partnerships. I think this has been laid out and this is foreign policy in action. I will be happy to explain it to you further, but I can say that Canadians have seen it in action because we have taken a very strong position on all these issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Our final set in this round goes to Mr. Fonseca, please. The floor is yours for five minutes.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you, Minister. I feel that you've been very clear with our position on China, and also with what I'm going to ask you about Belarus.

On November 5, 2020, an independent expert report on Belarus was prepared under the auspices of the OSCE. I want to thank the Honourable Hedy Fry for all her hard work there at the OSCE on behalf of Canada. Thank you, Hedy.

In that report, they found that on August 9, 2020, the presidential elections were not transparent, free or fair, and that there have been beyond any doubt major human rights abuses carried out by the Belarusian state against its own people.

Minister, what impact, if any, might this report have on the international community's response to the events unfolding in Belarus?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fonseca, for the question.

As you know, we've been at the forefront of the response. We've been issuing statements condemning the situation, calling it for what it is, with the United Kingdom and other partners around the world, with the European Union.

We have done three sets of sanctions when it comes to Belarus—the latest one with the European Union—and we will continue to do that because we think that it's really about sending a very clear and loud message that the international community is not going to stay idle.

You may recall that I was, again, one of the first foreign ministers to get in touch with the leader of the democratic movement, Svetlana Tikhanovskaya. We've remained in touch since then. I visited her last time at a summit that was organized in the Baltics, with all the Baltic foreign ministers. We have looked at ways on how we can support the democratic movement. I think Canadians should be proud to see that their government is there standing up with her and these brave women who have been facing a very authoritarian regime.

We will continue, obviously, to fight for freedom and for a free and fair election in Belarus.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Minister, it is heartening to see that there is action on these reports.

The Government of Canada is making a $6.6-million contribution to the World Trade Organization in 2021. In 2020, Canada was a 2.5% contributor to the WTO. How is Canada ranked as a member contributor to the WTO? What voice does Canada have at the table?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I may leave that to the deputy for the exact number on contributors. She may have that.

Look at the Ottawa Group. This is a creation of Canada where we took action at a time when leadership was needed at the WTO, when the appellate function was put into question and where it was undermining the very foundation of the WTO. This is a bit like the foreign minister COVID group that I created. This was of the moment. We led and provided leadership. The Ottawa Group has done great things with respect to the supply chain.

With respect to your specific question, I'm happy to cede the floor to the deputy, or otherwise to come back to you with a written answer on the specific amount of funding.

Deputy.

[Marta Morgan, Deputy Minister, Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't have those numbers at my fingertips, but we'd be glad to get them back to the committee after this.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, I have another question that comes to numbers again. At the Women Deliver conference in June 2019, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced that the Government of Canada will raise its funding to reach an average of $1.4 billion annually by 2023 to support women, children and adolescents' health around the world, with $700 million going specifically to sexual and reproductive health and rights until 2030.

Minister, is Canada on track for holding up this commitment?

Maybe the deputy will have some of those numbers.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Definitely. This is Canada playing a leadership role in the world. We've said it before, and I think questions from the members have highlighted this. We know that the COVID crisis has disproportionately impacted women and girls around the world and that we need to do more to support them to make sure they will be fully at the table. We know that once you have more diversity at the table—more women at the table—peace is more sustainable.

We need to continue to be there for economic security. We're doing that at the UN. We're doing that through a number of agencies. That's what Canadians would expect from their government.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Minister, thank you very much.

Mr. Fonseca, thank you.

I want to thank all colleagues, Minister Champagne included, for respecting the time limits. As a result of our discipline, we have an additional 12 or 13 minutes before we need to come to a hard stop.

I propose to divide that time evenly across parties to give every party an additional chance to ask one pithy two-and-a-half-minute question and answer. We'll go in the sequence of Mr. Genuis, Ms. Dabrusin, Monsieur Bergeron and Mr. Harris.

I would give the floor to Mr. Genuis, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I was so struck by your comment that the military technology that Canada sold to Turkey, which gave Azerbaijan a decisive military advantage over Armenia, was just cameras. To me, it's like saying that a bullet is just a piece of metal. The nature of a thing is in its use. The use in this case was critical technology that gave Turkey a decisive advantage. It doesn't matter if it's a piece of metal or a camera or whatever it is. What matters is its use. The flippant way in which you, a minister of the Crown, refer to that would, I think, be quite surprising to people whose lives were directly affected by this conflict.

Minister, you responded to that before and I would invite further comments on that in writing.

I want to ask you a specific question about your policy with respect to Iran. We all recognize the importance of democratic norms and adhering to votes that take place in the House of Commons. Two and a half years ago, you voted to immediately list the IRGC as a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code. Will your government follow the will of the House of Commons and list the IRGC as a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code, as you voted to do two and a half years ago?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chair, let me refer first to the question and the comment that was made by the member. I won't let the record stand on what he said.

There is nobody.... Look at me, Mr. Genuis. I have been more engaged on the file of Nagorno-Karabakh than you probably have been. I've been in contact with the—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, your comments spoke for themselves. I'd like a response on the Iran question, please. I have two and a half minutes.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Let me answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Genuis, can I just remind you of the point that we made earlier, which is not to have members talk over each other, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, that is fair, but it is my time to manage. I'd asked the minister a question on Iran—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Genuis, I've hit the pause button.

Just as a point of order, it's impossible for interpretation to follow when members talk over each other.

Please. This is just a reminder.