Foreign Affairs Committee on May 27th, 2024

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

I'd also like to thank all the witnesses for being here today and sharing their expertise with us. Thank you for your service, certainly.

I'm going to start with you, Mr. Diendéré, if I could.

You spoke about the power of the African Union. We know now that the African Union has increasingly recognized that, when they vote together and work together in multilateral fora, there is better opportunity. I am wondering, from your perspective, whether Canada has recognized that sufficiently. We've seen, for example, the Security Council seat. We were not successful, in part, because countries within the continent of Africa did not support our bid.

I'm wondering if our approach is somewhat dated in terms of how we interact with the African Union. I know this is a difficult question for you to answer, but it's certainly one I want to ask.

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

Thank you for the question.

I'll try to answer this in French to make sure I am—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes, please do.

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

Yes, let me do that.

It is important to notice that, right now on the continent, it's not just about the influence. It's about who can bring something different to the table. Yes, things are changing.

Things are changing quickly when it comes to the francophonie, the Portuguese-speaking world and the Commonwealth.

All three groups are playing on the continent. You can add to this the Gulf States, India, China and Russia.

This is what is happening in Africa right now. These three language groups do not judge Canada. I have never been judged about anything. Things are actually changing very fast on the continent. Between the time I arrived and now, the African Union has joined the G20 and Ethiopia and several countries have joined BRICS. Things are changing so fast that even the dynamic on the continent needs to be monitored constantly.

Has Canada recognized this? I think it has, because at the moment, all our efforts are directed toward the language communities. We will come back to this with Mr. Bergeron. All our discussions have strengthened our multilateralism and the rule of law. Those are how we will remain relevant.

Africa's influence does continue to be very strong.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm going to give you a bit of an example of something I could perhaps get some information on.

What we're seeing across many countries is increasing conflict. Obviously, everyone is quite worried about the conflict we're seeing escalating in Sudan and the impact on civilians.

How is Canada supporting the African Union in building peace in Sudan, for example? We know that Canada, in terms of peacekeepers, is not really present on the continent at all, anymore. How are we providing some of those services to the AU? How are we supporting that peace-building initiative?

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

Thank you for your question, Ms. McPherson.

We are at all the discussion tables, in particular those in IGAD, the Intergovernmental Authority on Development. We are around the table with our partners from the United States or Great Britain, to strengthen the message of peace. We have experts on the subject of Sudan who are monitoring and supporting the African Union authorities at present. Even the African Union has trouble organizing itself when it comes to Sudan. The subject has been allowed to slide from time to time, but the experts have come back to it.

I think a round table has been organized to find a solution with Sudan. That work will happen if and only if the belligerents want to end the conflicts.

We have partners at the United Nations whom we follow, including the person responsible for the Horn of Africa, who is an excellent ally of Canada. In fact, we have met with her regularly. When our senior officials arrived, they met with her to strengthen Canada's position with the aim of finding a solution for Sudan.

Our country still has a lot of credibility at the discussion tables, and so, people listen to what we have to say.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Maybe I'll just pass it on. I'm sorry I've been monopolizing your time, but Mr. Callan, perhaps you'd like to offer something as well, considering your region, in terms of how Canada can support peace negotiations, peace-building and peacekeeping within the region.

[Michael Callan]

Thanks for your question.

There's a wide range of ways we can and do. There is all kinds of peace-building support that's funded directly by Ottawa for grassroots organizations that are working to bring communities together to address the real divides at the grassroots level. Even offering mediation support, even if it's not frontline mediation—there's track two, track three—but more subtle, less overt efforts often can be instrumental in bringing people together and just enabling conversations that perhaps some of the tier-one mediation efforts would not bring as much attention to.

Relating back to a point that was made earlier, our brand is still very strong, so the avenue for Canada to play that role in bringing parties together is unique and special. Because of that uniqueness that not many countries can bring to the table, it's an area that we've doubled down on.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much. I believe that's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you. We now go to Mr. Chong.

Mr. Chong, you have four minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for Ambassador Callan and High Commissioner Thornley. As you know, this committee is studying the Government of Canada's approach to Africa.

My question is simple. What key advice, what key two or three recommendations, do you have for this committee?

[Christopher Thornley]

I think we're not sure who goes first. Go ahead, Michael.

[Michael Callan]

One thing to take note of that surprised me, but has become part of my daily reality, is just how competitive the space is right now. It is competitive in commercial terms. It's competitive in diplomatic terms. It's competitive with some of our adversaries and, for some reason, also with some of our like-minded countries as well on the commercial side. That's not to speak negatively of that sense of competition, but it's serious business.

As geopolitical shifts continue, we just need to be serious about how we're bringing all of our tools to the table to advance the interests and values that we all care so deeply about. We're doing this in many ways, but I think the North African context sometimes can be helpful because it's a very distinct presence of a non-aligned position.

Nobody wants to be in one camp or the other, but I do see some of our competitors really bringing everything they can to the table. I know that we're doing everything we can with our tools as well. I encourage the committee to approach some of these questions in the spirit of really being serious about what's at stake at the moment.

[Christopher Thornley]

Thank you.

I could follow on, if that's all right.

I would agree that it's a highly competitive environment. Kenya is a more advanced country. We see very active involvement, for example, from a country like Turkey or from the Gulf states. They're very present and their presence is known.

Turkey has been opening embassies in almost every country on the continent. I'm not saying that we should open a lot of new embassies or representation. What I am saying is we have to be aware of our competition, be willing to act and also be willing to work with them where it might be possible.

I think we need to be thinking very carefully about people-to-people linkages and about our diasporas. There are many in Africa. They're a great asset for us.

We need to be thinking about how we conduct immigration. We've been working very closely with Kenya, for example, on orderly and...let's call it demand-driven immigration. They will be working more closely with provinces and industry associations to identify gaps, provide training and have people go to Canada who are set up to succeed. It's a bit of a win-win situation.

Finally, I think it's just to be agile. We were asked, for example, to play a role with Kenya. We asked Kenya to step up on Haiti. There are those third-country opportunities to work with Africa. We shouldn't always view Africa as an aid recipient, but also as a partner that can help us, including in our own neighbourhood, in that example.

I'll finish on the United States' designation of Kenya—I'm just talking on my own neighbourhood—as a non-NATO ally during President Ruto's visit. It was the only one in sub-Saharan Africa and it speaks to the potential for developing very strong relationships.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We next go to MP Chatel.

You have four minutes.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being with us today at this late hour. We are very glad you are participating in this study, which is very important to us, and to you as well, I hope.

Mr. Diendéré, this committee has heard many witnesses refer to Agenda 2063 and the strategic plans. Some witnesses have also spoken about the aid that Canada is prepared to give.

You talked about four important sectors: agriculture, energy, education and infrastructure. You also talked about climate change and infrastructure resilience and about the knowledge that Canada can bring in this field.

You did not have time to finish your remarks earlier, but you talked about major projects proposed by Canadian companies.

Can you give us some concrete examples of the knowledge, mutual assistance and economic development measures that Canada can bring to Africa?

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

Thank you, Ms. Chatel.

I can give you some concrete examples. I have seen Canadian companies propose rechargeable solar panels. I have also seen Canadian companies come in with solutions in agriculture, particularly in connection with fertilizers. Others have come in with nutritional products, such as vitamins, for children. Things are happening. I would like to tell you about it somewhere other than in this forum, where I can give you the names of all the companies that have to be memorized. Good work is being done and there are good leaders on the continent right now.

The work done by Canadian mining companies is recognized, but there are others. You know, our country is made up of small and medium enterprises, and some of them are very dynamic on the ground. What is valuable is that our businesses bring a development-oriented approach. Because they come in with expertise and a clear intention, for example, to support businesses owned by women, young people or members of other minorities, they are very well regarded. There are also local investment fund programs that support the non-governmental organizations. So there are great things being done on the development front by Canadians.

To come back to the question your colleague asked earlier, directing the things we do toward very specific fields would be a major asset. Agenda 2063 is a great document that we need to become familiar with. The African Union has a virtual university, an airline company, and pan-African telecommunications systems to build. It is in the process of developing the biggest free-trade zone you can imagine on this planet.

There is room for Canadians and Canadian initiatives, if we really get going on it.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you. That is all very interesting.

I am going to turn to Mr. Callan and Mr. Thornley to find out—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Madame Chatel, I'm afraid you're out of time. It's four minutes now.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

If you have examples in your region, it would be—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Excuse me, Madame Chatel. You're over time, I'm afraid.

Thanks.

Mr. Bergeron, you have two minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to continue the preamble to my question.

We have seen the countries in the Sahel expel France, if I can put it that way. We know that the Government of Canada has worked very hard, for example, to get Algeria to join the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie.

We will recall that in 2004, Mr. Saada went to Algeria on behalf of the Government of Canada, as the minister responsible for the francophonie, to try to persuade it to join that organization. We know that Algeria, like several other countries that are former French colonies, is trying to expand the presence of English in the country. Rwanda also comes to mind.

Is Canada still trying to get Algeria to join the organization?

Are relations between the governments of Canada and Algeria conducted in French or English?

[Michael Callan]

That's a good question. Thank you for it.

You can take the irony of me responding in English, in view of the late hour.

We engage exclusively in French, entirely, with the Algerian government, and you're right, you've touched on a very sensitive point for the Algerians. With their fraught history with the French presence, it's part of their culture. It's part of their identity, but it's one that they are deliberating making a move away from. Just recently, they switched. The second official language being in taught in schools is now English, so there's a deliberate move away.

We do try to encourage closer links with the Francophonie, for all the good reasons that you know well, and we mention some of them. We do so more from an operational vantage point: that it just presents another network and another community for them to have influence at and to benefit from. There's a bit of a polite reception for that, but you can't stress enough the trauma within the culture that remains and how much of a hot-button issue it is to suggest that they ought to retain a part of the culture that many Algerian authorities are doing what they can to push away from.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We will now go to Madam McPherson.

You have two minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Callan and Mr. Diendéré, you both spoke about how Canada's brand is strong, and I'm going to push back on that a bit. I don't want to put you in a bad situation, but in the Senate study, there were witnesses who said that Canada is becoming increasingly irrelevant in Africa. I was on the parliamentary group that was just in Tanzania. They asked, where is Canada? The parliament of Tanzania asked where we were. From their perspective, we were missing.

We know that there has been a lot of support for multilateral development in sub-Saharan Africa and less support for Canadian organizations, so I'm going to put this to all three of you: What could Canada do to make itself more relevant in the African continent? I understand that you've said it is very relevant or the brand is strong, but we have heard as well that's questionable. I'm wondering if there are things that we could do to strengthen that brand.

Mr. Thornley, I haven't asked you a question yet. Why don't I start with you?

Then I'll go to Mr. Callan.