Foreign Affairs Committee on May 27th, 2024

[Christopher Thornley]

Thank you, MP. I'll try to be quick because I know time is short.

One always has to work on a brand. You can't take it for granted. I think that in order to strengthen our brand we have to find constant ways to engage and to be listening—which I believe we are—in terms of what our African partners are looking for. A big part of that—and I'll go back to what I spoke about earlier—I think is engagement at a commercial level. They are looking for investment.

I'm very pleased, for example, with the work that FinDev is doing here in Kenya. Their biggest and first investment is in Kenya, with an organization called “M-KOPA”, which provides very innovative microfinance, starting in the solar sector and now in transportation.

As a result of that investment, drivers of motorcycles who provide transportation are driving electric bikes and are able to finance them on a daily basis. That kind of engagement ups our brand incredibly.

There is always more that we could be doing in those kinds of areas in a creative way.

Thank you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Callan.

[Michael Callan]

Just building off that, then, I think you're also very right that the brand—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Very briefly, please.

[Michael Callan]

—is still present and still strong.

Sometimes we hear that African partners need Canada. I'm not sure that's any longer the case. Many do want Canada, but there are other options now. We can be a preferred partner because of the quality of our products. Often, the caricature of us being a moral value-based player...that does count. It still does count, but they don't need us, if they ever did.

I think that if there's one thing we could do—it sounds a little bit cliché, but it just matters—and we can't get [Technical difficulty—Editor] so maybe it's just the value of investing in relationships with high-level authorities. Relationships matter.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

Now we go to Mr. Epp. You have four minutes.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for all the testimony thus far.

I'm going to continue on the same vein that Ms. McPherson was on.

Last week, a number of us attended the Global Cooperation Caucus. Stanley Achonu, the Nigerian director for ONE, actually stated that Canada has been breadcrumbing African countries: offering just enough for a connection but really avoiding the true commitment. We've all heard the calls from NGOs, from diaspora communities and from all of us around this table and other groups, that we want a clear approach, a strategy. Call it what you want.

I'll start with you, Monsieur Diendéré.

Do we not need specifics? We've heard much general testimony and over the last half-hour have gotten more into specifics, but to get to something that actually has a deliverable component to it, in a strategy, do we as Canada not need to focus and make some hard decisions on priorities?

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

Thank you very much for the question.

I agree with you: Yes, we need to focus a little bit, but we're having two dialogues. The last one we did in just one month has a true component for focusing on stuff that's very great for Canada and Africa. The development dialogue we just launched has a component on TVET, which is vocational education. There are components on agriculture, there are components on women entrepreneurship and even research and development on it.

What we are doing upstream, through these three policies, gives us opportunities to achieve the result you would like to see, which is to have things be very focused.

Yes, brands are brands. Ours is strong, because, as we know, people want to come to Canada. I have never participated in a meeting where someone did not already have a connection with Canada, whether through their family or their education, and did not have good memories of it. It is always very important to consider how we see ourselves in the world.

Yes, we need to focus on various themes, but I think we're getting there with the relation we're building with the African Union Commission.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

Let me test out some specifics. In our trade relationships, we now have you as the permanent observer at the AU.

Should Canada pursue a free trade agreement with the free trade bloc through the AU, or should Canada pursue specific free trade agreements with countries where there's a fit, a synergy? Then, within some sort of a focused strategy, let's put some deliverables like 10 countries, if we choose a second row. What would be your comment on that?

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

I will start, and I'll leave the floor to Chris on this.

You know what? I come from the private sector. My last job was in the private sector. I know the importance of trade, the importance of having pilots and strategic planning.

I understand the idea of having a free trade relationship with Africa very well. That being said, Africa consists of 54 countries. As well, it is so volatile that we have to be careful not to put together groups that will not hold up. It is important to focus on certain pilot countries or certain relationships and solidify the existing relationships. Kenya is a good example. Algeria is also a good example, when it comes to wheat and grains. In some countries in southern Africa and west Africa, there are mining companies.

I don't know if free trade with Africa is one of the ways to do it. My sense right now is to be more cautious, because everything is volatile on the continent, and we need to keep our energy in the right place for the benefit of some countries and Canada.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I know my time is up, Mr. Chair, but I would love to hear from Mr. Thornley on that.

I'll just put that out there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Thornley, do you want to provide a 20-second response?

[Christopher Thornley]

I think I would agree that you have to focus. There are countries where we can achieve success and a platform and where there are building blocks for trade. We have to start with things like foreign investment protection agreements and double taxation agreements and then work towards free trade agreements and also look at tools that are another step towards a free trade agreement like the U.S. model of a trade and investment framework agreement, which is really just the stage below a full FTA.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We will go to MP Alghabra. You have four minutes.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for joining us today.

Perhaps I'll start with Mr. Diendéré.

If you were to assess or evaluate expertise on Africa within GAC, what's your evaluation of the expertise within GAC?

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

Oh, thank you. This is one of my favourite topics.

Coming from the private sector, coming from outside, I have the privilege to see the expertise inside now.

If you had told me six months ago that I could have identified the expertise…

I would say that people are very knowledgeable.

We have to organize ourselves and organize what we are doing.

I don't like talking about things that I don't like or I don't understand.

However, having all these knowledgeable people at Global Affairs Canada, during my nine months there, is so valuable. With the transformation we're doing right now at GAC, we're going to be more focused on things. There's a lot of good stuff there.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

I guess I'm trying to read between the lines. Are you saying there's adequate or proper expertise, or do we need to strengthen...?

What we're looking for as a committee is to issue recommendations to government. One of the things that I'm curious about is this: Given the evolving dynamics in Africa, given the changing world, do we have enough expertise, or do we need to increase our focus or enhance our skills that exist within GAC? Also, I'm curious about the footprint in Africa.

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There's always a place for improvement, but right now if we need experts in finance, we have them. If we need experts in investment, we have them. If we need experts in agriculture, we also have them. In development and humanitarian assistance, have all of this expertise. It has been built over time.

International Development has been working on these issues for a long time. Yes, things are changing.

We can add more expertise on this. There is AI right now, artificial intelligence, which is starting to be something very important in Africa.

In this continent, people are leapfrogging. We need to cope with all of these things. I guess we need improvement in some places, but I'm adamant that we have the expertise. We need to reorganize, and we are doing that with the transformation of the department.

Mr. Thornley, do you want to add something?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Thornley, I think you're the one who mentioned engaging the diaspora. It has almost always been an issue trying to figure out how to operationalize that. How do we systemically benefit from the knowledge, skills and expertise that Canadians of certain backgrounds have to help Canada further strengthen and advance its interest in a certain region?

Do you have any advice or recommendations? How do we ensure that we benefit from the expertise of Canadians of African origin to enhance or advance our relationship with Africa?

[Christopher Thornley]

Thank you, MP.

You understand this very well even from a personal level. It's very important to work with and identify individuals probably in every large Canadian corporation. I was talking to somebody who happened to be from Kenya, who was quite senior in one of our big banks, for example. You can identify some of those individuals and they can identify others. So there's no magic solution.

We do have organizations such as the Canadian chamber of business, which has lots of members of the diaspora, who have stepped forward, because they want to promote better and stronger relations between Canada and African countries in universities. I think we're reaching a critical mass where, honestly, it's not too hard to find really solid people, and it's a matter of working with them.

I'm quite proud of a good program we have—I believe the name's changed, and I apologize that I don't have it—that we were developing in the trade commissioner service to have mentors for experienced business people both in Canada and abroad to help smaller companies get into markets. I think it's about that kind of work, to develop those mentoring relationships, because let's face it: Africa has tremendous potential, but is a more difficult market than some others, so we need to provide pathways for people where we can make it as easy for them as possible.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We now go to Mr. Hoback.

Mr. Hoback, you have four minutes.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, and thank you to the witnesses.

Historically, we've had lots of students come from Africa to be educated in Canada. How is that helping or hurting in regard to moving forward, and seeing people doing business back and forth between Canada and Africa with these students when they go home?

[Michael Callan]

May I take that one?

I think there's a link that can be made with the previous question as well, and it's less on the diaspora per se, but it's with Africans who have Canadian experience.

In terms of what more can be done, I think there's probably some room to help organize alumni groups. I know my colleagues will know many well-placed people within the governments they are accredited to, governments that have a number of Canadian graduates well placed in them. I'm not sure we always do everything we can to organize them, to cultivate and maintain those Canadian connections and Canadian experiences. I think there could be some interesting work to be done there.