Foreign Affairs Committee on May 27th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

They will, but the opening remarks were for Mr. Diendéré alone. We can pose questions to all three ambassadors.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We'll next go to MP Oliphant. You have six minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, ambassadors and high commissioners, for joining us today. I don't know where I'm looking, because you're all on the screen. It is really great to be with you today and to thank you for your work representing Canada.

I'll start with our permanent observer to the African Union, Monsieur Diendéré. What was your biggest surprise—I'm going off script here—in assuming your position in Addis Ababa?

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

Thank you, Mr. Oliphant, and for your last visit to us. It was very helpful to engage with the African Union.

One of my big surprises was the bias that people in the African Union still have toward Canada. They still love us. They need us. They're really enjoying our presence. The brand is still there. We have a couple of things to do, but the brand of Canada is still out there.

They see us as an enabler. They see how we can be very interesting for them. I must say, yes, the biases toward Canada with all of my interlocutors are still positive.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

High Commissioner Thornley, it's good to see you here again as well. This isn't the biggest surprise, but you are really one of our specialist representatives on the continent. You've been in Ghana, Togo, Sierra Leone and Nigeria, and now you're in Kenya.

What do you see as the biggest challenge in deepening Canada's relationships with individual countries? I don't mean with the AU as such, but in individual bilateral relations. What are our biggest opportunity and our biggest challenge?

[Christopher Thornley]

Thank you, PS Oliphant.

I think our biggest challenge is probably developing more interest and engagement from Canada, whether it be from companies and civil society, or in government-to-government relations. There are many distractions in the world right now, and many challenges. It's very important not to lose sight that Africa is such a growing continent, with many countries that have tremendous potential and others that have serious need. I also cover Somalia, and that truly is a country in desperate need of continued humanitarian and development assistance.

We need whatever can be done to increase engagement. I have a background in trade development as well, and I was very pleased to see in the last fall economic statement—and, I believe, in the budget—measures to increase risk appetite, for example, from Crown corporations such as the EDC and CCC, which will help de-risk some commercial activities.

Of course, we have increased people-to-people engagement and all kinds of other engagement, which are so required to develop our relationships with African countries.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

You used my magic word that I use a lot: "de-risk".

I want to turn to Ambassador Callan.

You, in Algeria, are living in a difficult neighbourhood. It's a relatively calm country, but it's surrounded by Mali, Niger, and Libya and is not far from Chad and Burkina Faso.

Tell me a little bit about the security situation, both in southern Algeria and in your neighbourhood, and whether you are seeing any changes for the good or for the worse.

[Michael Callan, Ambassador of Canada to Algeria, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

It's true, and it's an important observation that the security situation in the neighbourhood is deteriorating.

I think that's an important, objective observation that the trends are negative across the Sahel. They're alarming for us. They're alarming for our Algerian partners with the extent of the border that they maintain with Mali and Niger. They're seeing the direct effect of that insecurity through increased flows of irregular migration.

That's a concern for a number of reasons. There's the immediate potential to destabilize the political equilibrium in Algeria, as well as in some of our other North African countries. Also, I'd suggest that, in those insecure contexts, it creates new openings for other actors to try to pronounce themselves, and they have. That's been a concern that we and Algeria, for example, share very dearly.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I have one minute.

With regard to the regional economic communities, High Commissioner Thornley and Ambassador Callan, do you have any comments on how Canada should relate to ECOWAS, IGAD and the other economic communities?

[Christopher Thornley]

With the regional economic communities, we have to recognize that they have some strengths and many weaknesses. The parts are bigger than the whole, but there are opportunities to work with them.

For example, when Ms. Joly was here, she engaged with IGAD on Sudan. There are still opportunities where we may be able to carve out a little bit of a leadership role for IGAD to play in that area. It's the same with the east African community on issues around eastern DRC. There are areas where we can work with them and perhaps guide them to pinpointing and finding positive solutions. We also have to be realistic that they are generally not terribly strong organizations.

When I was in Nigeria, I dealt with ECOWAS. I could see them, for example, be quite successful in Gambia when there was instability there because they made a concerted decision to move forward on it. However, in other times, they can be underwhelming in their responses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Callan, I would ask you to respond to that question in subsequent rounds because we are out of time for this round.

We next go to Mr. Bergeron.

You have six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks very much to our witnesses.

Thank you for being available and being here at such a late hour, and for your comments.

I think in his remarks, Mr. Diendéré clearly illustrated the importance of Africa to Canada and the opportunities it offers. Canada still needs to organize its ideas in terms of what it intends to do. Following the publication of Canada's Indo-Pacific Strategy there was discussion of an African strategy, which then became a framework and then a policy. When senior government officials testified here, no one really knew what it was. As a result, we have the impression that the government is governing or playing it by ear when it comes to Africa. According to the senior officials at Global Affairs Canada, a broad consultation has been held, in Canada and Africa, to learn more about opportunities for engagement on the continent. That consultation apparently ended on July 31 last year.

My question is very simple. Was the Canadian diplomatic corps in Africa asked to participate in those consultations?

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Yes, we participated in consultations. Personally, I was new to my position, so I was consulted about what I knew about these issues. I know that efforts are being made both here and there to complete the process quickly.

To be honest, the question at this point is more about whether we are keeping pace with Africa. Consider what is happening in the African Union. As you know, this is a time of great transition. The entire leadership there is changing. Canada is preparing to submit a favourable decision. The decision concerning the name might come up here and there in the discussions. I have followed that and heard it, but my observations on the ground tell me that we are not the only ones considering how we are going to define our engagement with this continent.

I have held discussions with very high-level diplomats from very well-informed countries who are nonetheless also considering how to position themselves and how to define the entire approach they want to undertake with Africa.

This is nothing new for us and it will not be the last time we find the appropriate tone. I am very pleased that we are taking the time to work on this, because this situation may give rise to a lot of disappointments or concerns, particularly regarding the present state of our relationship with the continent.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much.

In fact, a number of witnesses have given us to understand that there are high expectations in Africa. There seems to be disenchantment with the former colonial powers, France in particular. In some cases, there seem to be concerns about states that are tending toward wanting to occupy the ground left vacant by the countries—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

On a point of order, Mr. Bergeron, I apologize, but there is no translation. I'm sorry to interrupt.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Should we try this again? Do you want to resume?

Is it working now? Excellent.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I was saying that there seemed to be growing resistance on the continent to countries that are determined to occupy the ground left vacant by the western powers. Russia and China come to mind. So there are high expectations of Canada.

Do you think Canada has lived up to Africa's expectations so far?

[Ben Marc Diendéré]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

I can't answer for Africans. However, I can tell you about how they received Canada's decision to appoint a permanent observer.

So that committee members are aware, I would like to point out that only five countries have two representatives in Africa: one who is dedicated to bilateral relations and another who handles relations with the continent, that is, multilateral relations. In addition to Canada, they are the United States, Italy, Switzerland and Japan. So we are part of a very small contingent of people the Africans are observing who they think might make a satisfactory commitment to the projects they propose.

I still think, although I have not done a scientific survey, that Canada's reputation remains good. These people have expectations of us and they are aiming high, but Canada's experience covers a number of sectors, including the well-known ones of education and agriculture. I would even mention energy. It is very clear to people that Canada has expertise that it can apply on the ground. Personally, I am very confident in the relationship that is developing with the African Union at present.

When it comes to the countries with which Africa has become disenchanted, we have no role to play, apart from observing clearly and making sure we do not make the same mistakes as the other countries when they decided to work with the African Union and its institutions and with the continent itself.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Very good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You only have six seconds remaining, Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

However, Mr. Chair, I would point out that I lost a few seconds because of the little interpretation problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Sure, we will give you 30 seconds.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you. So right off, I am just going to outline the subject in anticipation of the next round of questions.

The francophonie is one of the factors from which we can see that Africa is a land of opportunities and holds great promise for the future. There is a belief that, thanks to Africa, French could be the language that experiences the strongest growth in the next few decades. However, Jean‑Louis Roy told us when he appeared before the committee that in order for this to happen, schools must be built to match the strong demographic growth Africa is experiencing, and that without French schools, the languages learned will obviously be Arabic, Urdu, Wolof or Swahili, but not French.

Be prepared, gentlemen; I will be coming back to that question in the second round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We next go to MP McPherson.

You have six minutes.