Evidence of meeting #116 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was conflict.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Caroline Delany  Director General, Southern and Eastern Africa Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Julie Desloges  Acting Director, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Jacqueline O'Neill  Ambassador for Women, Peace and Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jacqueline O'Neill Ambassador for Women, Peace and Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you.

I'd be happy to talk about that.

Certainly. I'd be very happy to share this, and I really thank the committee for focusing on Sudan.

I can speak very specifically to some of the work that has been going on over the last month or month and a half, as well as the work that many have done over the last 20, 30 or 40 years, unfortunately.

I'll share what I can. I want to be respectful, of course, of the safety of the women who've been involved in the mediation effort, as it's an extremely dangerous thing to be involved in. I also don't want to betray their confidences and jeopardize their access to future rounds of talks, but there's certainly much we can say.

I can give a snapshot of the talks that happened in Switzerland, and please cut me off if this is too much context. Very briefly, the U.S. mediation effort gathered people in Sudan. The co-hosts were Switzerland and Saudi Arabia. Observers included the U.A.E., Egypt, the African Union and the UN. The goal was to bring together the two parties, the RSF and the Sudanese Armed Forces, or SAF, and agree on three narrow issues: a ceasefire, increased humanitarian access and monitoring and evaluation mechanisms for an agreement that was reached.

The SAF did not come to the talks. The mediators kept the invitation open and stayed in virtual contact with them. They said it was contact diplomacy, and there were various other ways to be in touch. Those who stayed in Switzerland ended up focusing primarily on humanitarian issues.

The U.S. mediator wanted to ensure that Sudanese women, particularly civilian women, were able to influence the process, so my loose counterpart in the U.S., the Ambassador-at-Large for Global Women's Issues at the state department, convened a group of about 15 Sudanese women, including several young women from diverse locations like those representing Darfur, who came to Geneva—not to the exact site of the talks—for multiple weeks, and they had a number of contacts meeting directly with the special envoy and his team, as well as with the broader group.

The talks unfortunately didn't reach the goal that they intended—specifically, a ceasefire—but there were some specific outcomes that resulted, including the opening of two humanitarian access points to get desperately needed aid into various areas. The women who came together identified shared priorities based around those three narrow talks, and everyone was very specific that this ceasefire negotiation was not meant to replace a broader political and inclusive civilian-led process that has to address the root causes of the issue. It can't just replicate the same power dynamics that led to this conflict in the first place. They provided a lot of very specific points.

If I have time, in one minute I can share a couple of them. Briefly, they influenced the dynamics and the content of the talks themselves—this has been substantiated publicly by the mediator, and Secretary Blinken of the U.S. made the same comments—and they did so in a couple of ways.

They spoke very frankly about the immense trauma and horrors of the horrific situation that they're dealing with. They talked about sexual violence. They talked about people they know, because everyone knows someone who has been raped by either the RSF or the SAF, and they really brought a sense of urgency to the talks.

They talked about the cessation of hostilities, wanting to ensure that sexual violence would be included in any ceasefire agreement as a violation and explicitly named. They talked about the issue of the two armed groups at different checkpoints demanding sex in exchange for passage, access or food, and that being a crisis and a situation that commanders needed to address.

They asked whether, if humanitarian passages are opened, the corpses of people could be returned through those humanitarian access passageways, because there's so much trauma in communities among people who don't know whether their loved ones are dead or aren't able to give them proper burials. They wanted to include that in talks.

They tried to ensure that humanitarian assistance, which Canada often supports, includes dignity kits for women with sanitary products and access to various medical services and supplies that they need.

They also talked about future talks and future negotiations. They were very clear that they want to ensure women are directly included, and they got that assurance from all of the groups that were there in the final declaration from all of the actors.

Thank you for your question.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you.

We now go to MP Bergeron. You have five minutes.

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for your opening remarks and your answers to our questions.

I think we need to take stock of the catastrophic situation that is unfolding in that part of the world. I note that we have three women with us to enlighten us on what is going on there. That seems particularly fitting to me. Thank you.

As part of the committee's study on Canada's approach to Africa, members have been informed of the entirely predictable nature of the conflict in Sudan.

Since the conflict was entirely predictable, what role did the Government of Canada play in trying to prevent it before the violence broke out in April 2023?

4 p.m.

Director General, Southern and Eastern Africa Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Caroline Delany

Thank you.

That's the toughest question, I think.

Many times, in hindsight, these conflicts were visible in advance. As for the signals they saw coming, it's hard at the time to know exactly what the trigger will be.

Canada had a mission and a long-standing engagement in Sudan for quite some time prior to this particular conflict. At the time of the revolution, in 2019, we upgraded the chargé d'affaires to an ambassador in recognition of the toppling of al-Bashir, the president who had had control of the country for 30 years, in order to be able to provide support for that transition to a democratic Sudan. That included reopening the development program that had previously been closed in Sudan, as well as working with IFIs to support the institutions in Sudan to be able to reform and respond to the opportunity that was presented with the end of the al-Bashir regime and the introduction of a civilian-led government.

Unfortunately, what happened subsequently was that the leaders of the RSF and SAF undertook a coup and toppled Prime Minister Hamdok and the civilian-led government, and decided to take power for themselves.

There was a UN mission there at the time, called UNITAMS. Our ambassador was very closely involved in supporting that mission's efforts—as well as like-minded nations, like the U.S., the U.K. and Norway—engaging with the SAF and RSF and encouraging them to return to a process of a civilian-led government.

Ultimately, what has proven to be the case is these are two organizations looking to control Sudan themselves that have decided to solve their disputes through military means. As we are discovering through the very challenging mediation process, the opportunities to encourage them to come to a constructive and peaceful solution are really quite limited.

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Yesterday at the United Nations General Assembly, the United States, the European Union, France and Germany also called for an immediate ceasefire and expressed concern about foreign interference in this internal conflict.

Why did Canada not join those countries in speaking out yesterday?

4 p.m.

Director General, Southern and Eastern Africa Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Caroline Delany

The Government of Canada has issued a number of statements—at least a dozen, if not more—and social media statements, in particular, calling for a ceasefire or—

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

I'm sorry to interrupt. I understand very well what you are saying. However, yesterday, a number of countries with which we are usually very closely aligned made a statement.

Why did Canada not join that statement? Were we involved in the discussions that led to the statement by our allies?

4 p.m.

Director General, Southern and Eastern Africa Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Caroline Delany

I suspect this is the meeting that took place at the UN General Assembly yesterday. I can't comment on specific participation on the part of the Canadian government at that meeting, except to say that the UNGA, the UN General Assembly, has a very charged set of days, and there are often a lot of competing priorities that take our representatives to a lot of different locations.

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Okay.

Ms. Desloges, you spoke just now about work you have done with UN agencies and NGOs.

Which NGOs have you worked with specifically?

I am asking you because, on several occasions, the members of this committee have expressed the wish that our international aid be distributed not only through UN agencies and large NGOs, but also through small and medium-sized non-governmental agencies that often have a better foothold on the ground.

What about in Sudan?

4 p.m.

Acting Director, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Julie Desloges

Right now we're working with CARE Canada, which is our organization on the ground.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

I'm sorry, Ms. Desloges, but we're overtime. Perhaps you could spend about 30 seconds responding. Thank you.

4 p.m.

Acting Director, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Julie Desloges

Okay.

We work with CARE Canada. I just want to mention that the situation in Sudan has been extremely complex from an operational standpoint for smaller organizations. We have continued to support them. We expect that our support may continue to increase, now that there is a slightly more established presence.

In addition, our partners, even those from UN agencies, are working with local organizations there to support them in the implementation of humanitarian aid.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you very much.

We next go to MP McPherson. You have five minutes.

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here. This is such an important study for us to be doing in this committee. I know we have colleagues here and Canadian Sudanese people in the audience who are listening. I know that many are watching online and are deeply concerned about their loved ones, their family members and their friends.

I guess my very first question is this. In talking about what Canada has done in addressing the failures of the humanitarian visa program for Sudan, so far, if I understand correctly, not a single individual has come through under that program. Not a single person has been able to come, in contrast with the 200,000-plus Ukrainians. I'm just wondering why. Where is the gap there? Could you speak to that at all?

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Southern and Eastern Africa Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Caroline Delany

Mr. Chair, this unfortunately is outside my remit. I would have to refer the question to IRCC.

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Okay.

Obviously for so many Canadians hoping to get their family out, they see how quickly the response is happening in other jurisdictions and how that is not the case in this one.

I've also been hearing quite a lot from humanitarians, certainly organizations that are working there that are acknowledging the complexity of the region and the difficulty that we have there. There is also a massive diplomacy gap from their perspective. They've told me about humanitarian access, targeting of civilians, the looting of humanitarian aid and administrative blockages. These are all problems that require a concerted diplomatic effort, and it is unclear to many people in Canada, many people within the humanitarian community, what Canada is doing to make sure those diplomatic efforts are being put forward.

I'll give you a couple of questions there, and I'll pass it over to you. Knowing that this is potentially the largest humanitarian crisis that is happening, knowing that this is a government that has said we certainly have a feminist international assistance policy, and we've been told there is a feminist foreign policy, can you also tell us how many people are working on this crisis from each department, and how many people have been allocated to this? Knowing the size, knowing the scope, we'd just like to get a sense of the importance that the Canadian government is putting on this crisis.

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Southern and Eastern Africa Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Caroline Delany

Mr. Chair, I can't comment on other government departments, but I can say we've increased our presence in Addis in recognition of the seriousness and the importance of having people in the region who are specifically working on Sudan. We have two Canadian-based staff, CBS, in the region as well, and a locally engaged employee will be hired as well.

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I'm sorry. To clarify, there are two now, and there will be four?

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Southern and Eastern Africa Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Caroline Delany

There are two Canadians who are working there now specifically on Sudan, as well as supported, of course, by other members of that embassy, but they're the two who are dedicated to Sudan. Then one locally engaged staff will be hired as well.

In terms of here in headquarters, it's difficult for me to give precise numbers, because it's not just individuals. It's often full-time employees who are working, in part, on these files, but there are also folks working in my bureau, in the bilateral relations bureau, in our development team, as well as in our foreign policy team. Our peace and stabilization operations program also works on projects in Sudan, as well as, of course, on humanitarian assistance. Then others work on issues like sanctions, advocacy, policy and communications.

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

What I'm hearing is that on the ground there are the two, and two to come, and potentially a number of different part-time roles that are being played within Global Affairs Canada. How would that compare to, say, our response to Ukraine, which is a conflict that is also very complicated and deserves as much attention as possible? What would be the comparison there?

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Southern and Eastern Africa Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Caroline Delany

To ensure there's clarity with regard to the embassy in Ethiopia and the representation on Sudan, it's two Canadians—not two to come. So there are two Canadians and one locally engaged staff to be hired. Then it's outside my remit. I don't have the numbers here with regard to the comparison with other parts of the department.

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you.

In March, I wrote to Minister Joly, Minister Miller and Minister Hussen about the crisis in Sudan. I flagged a number of things that were very concerning to me about the Canadian response. I did hear back from Minister Miller and I'm grateful for his response. However, I did not ever hear back from Minister Joly or Minister Hussen.

One of the questions I asked of the government was that it was supposed to be shaming those states that were arming the Sudanese government and the paramilitary forces. They should be working to end the illegal trade in weapons that contributes to the crisis.

I also participated in a press conference with the Raoul Wallenberg Centre three months ago in which we also raised these concerns about the United Arab Emirates' role.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

I'm sorry, Madam McPherson. You're overtime.

We'll just provide 30 seconds for them to respond, please.

4:10 p.m.

Director General, Southern and Eastern Africa Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Caroline Delany

The government of Canada does call on all actors to respect international human rights and humanitarian law. It encourages all parties in the region and elsewhere to ensure that all actions lead to as swift a resolution of the conflict in Sudan as possible.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you very much.

Now we go to the second round, which is also five minutes each.

We'll go to MP Epp.

You have five minutes.