Foreign Affairs Committee on Sept. 26th, 2024

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Twenty-six and a half million people are facing hunger, along with the other atrocities that we're hearing about. That is certainly sobering.

I do, however, want to begin with a bit of a different tack. That is more about the Canadians that are in Sudan.

It's reported that about 1,800 Canadians are in Sudan itself. My information comes from a news report from end of April, so these numbers could be slightly off, but 700 requested assistance to get out.

The minister was reported to say that she was surprised by the eruption of the crisis, yet that same news report said that Canada was warned for weeks in advance. This was April. Ms. McPherson was just alluding to the fact that she herself was warning and asking our government.

Why would the government be surprised by the eruption of this conflict, given the seeming warnings in advance?

[Caroline Delany]

Thank you.

I think what was quite clear about the eruption of this conflict was that it was a surprise to a lot of countries.

In particular, I can share that I was there about three days before the conflict erupted. I met with the UN special envoy at the time. I met with representatives of the U.K., the U.S., as well as a number of other like-mindeds. No one suggested that a conflict was three days away of the scale of what erupted.

What's also quite different about this conflict from previous conflicts is that while Sudan is no stranger to violent conflict, it is very unusual to have civil war in the capital. It hasn't been seen before. The eruption in the capital and the threat that it posed as a result to the Canadian embassy, for example, was extremely unusual in the history of Sudan and one that wasn't being predicted on the ground at the time.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I'll continue with that a little bit.

The same news report went on to say that Canada and our armed forces did have a relationship through their liaison with the U.S. Africa Command and they were receiving warnings that the situation was becoming dire.

If I can probe a little bit more, is there a bit of a silo issue between our armed forces and Global Affairs in that those warnings aren't getting through for some of that preparation and some of that pre-positioning of assets?

If I can follow up on that, do you know how many...?

My information shows that 170 people of the 700 that requested assistance have been evacuated.

Do you know what the number would be today?

[Caroline Delany]

I don't have the number here of people who were evacuated. As you know, there was quite a significant lift in the immediate onset of the crisis.

Canada and other like-mindeds were put in a very difficult situation in April 2023 when the crisis hit. In order to evacuate a significant number of citizens, we worked with like-mindeds and others to get people on planes. Canadians also helped some of the citizens from other countries to be evacuated on Canadian Armed Forces planes as well.

I don't have the numbers on hand here with regard to the number that have been supported to leave. It's relatively small, but I'm told that our consular officials are in contact with those who have requested support. There are about two dozen active consular cases of all types of Canadians who are still believed to be in Sudan.

In addition, based on my own experience working on fragile and conflict-affected states, I would say that the things that trigger a violent conflict are very difficult to predict. It's not unusual to be in a situation like we saw in Sudan in 2023 when the events leading up to it are obvious in hindsight, but it's hard to know the exact moment it's going to happen.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

While I can appreciate that, our like-mindeds, as you referenced, were able to position their assets in such a way that they could help their citizens. As you said, they were also able to ferry some of our own Canadians out. If the U.S. and other like-mindeds were also surprised, how were they able to get their assets in such a position? My understanding from news reporting is that there were two C-130s in the region as well. Were we not able to secure landing rights?

I'm just trying to understand why the lag if there was such a surprise that was more widespread.

[Caroline Delany]

I'm afraid I'm not in a position to comment on the positioning of CAF assets.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Okay. I'll switch gears a little bit.

Can you talk about the externalities toward the peace process from nations outside of Sudan? The United Arab Emirates and Egypt are alleged to have picked sides. Where are China and Russia and the Wagner group?

My time is limited, but can you touch on those externalities of the process right now?

[Caroline Delany]

Absolutely.

Obviously, with regard to Russia, they aren't a positive actor in the country. I think their interests are probably much more for chaos as opposed to stability in the country. Historically, they were quite aligned through Wagner to the RSF. Their interests there were in having access to the gold mines that were controlled by the RSF. Obviously, things have changed quite a bit with regard to Wagner and the death of Prigozhin, but the Russians are still transitioning their approach with respect to using other means to be able to influence and engage with the Government of Sudan. Their interests are particularly in having access to gold in the country and to a port on the Red Sea.

China's interests are quite a bit different. We assess that they are likely more interested in stability than instability as a result of their significant investments in the oil sector in South Sudan. Only one pipeline runs out of South Sudan, and it runs through Sudan. There have been real issues with the stability of that pipeline as a result of the violent conflict in the country. From the Chinese perspective, the continuation of this war is likely a threat to their access with regard to the oil there.

For any country in the region, this war is of particular concern. There are significant migration issues related to this, with refugee flows in particular to the Central African Republic, South Sudan and Chad. These create significant challenges for those countries. There are also often ethnic ties that cross borders and that influence the stability or how this particular war plays out in those countries as well.

Canada's position is very much encouraging all actors to refrain from supporting the belligerents and recognizing that doing so is not in the interest of international human rights law or international humanitarian law.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Epp.

We next go to Dr. Fry.

Dr. Fry, you have five minutes.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to follow up on some of the questions that were asked earlier by my colleague Sophie.

It's obvious that we are supporting United Nations Resolution 1325. It's obvious that we're putting our money where our mouth is in some of these meetings. That is helping women. Now, giving women hygiene products is not really a way to deal with women who have been raped and sexually violated. What are we doing to help those women have access to abortion or to sexual and reproductive health products, etc., to help them? I would like to know what we're doing about that.

Second, it's great to listen to women coming in and talking about what is going on and giving you examples of what's happening, but what are we doing to move forward on the whole Resolution 1325, which is the prevention of conflict, negotiations during conflict and of course post-conflict rebuilding? What are we doing to encourage that and to give women a real say at the table on those issues, not just hear what they are telling you on the sidelines? Are we doing anything about that?

[Caroline Delany]

I'm going to start with the development program and then turn to my colleagues. Certainly the ambassador will have a fair amount to share, and then also Ms. Desloges will have some comments with regard to how we support these issues on the humanitarian side.

The Government of Canada mobilized $6 million worth of emergency funding in 2023, and the purpose of that was to recognize specifically that there were going to be new challenges that women and children, particularly girls, would face as a result of the onset of the crisis. We decided to allocate this fund specifically to education and emergencies, as well as for the prevention and response to sexual and gender-based violence.

I can share some of the concrete examples of what that money did. We supported 134 service points—these are mobile clinics as well as safe spaces for women and children—in response to people who are experiencing sexual and gender-based violence: 100,000 people received mental health supports as a result of that funding, and there were 80,000 consultations for sexual and reproductive health. I think these are significant ways of recognizing the unique ways in which women experience conflict, and of mobilizing development funds to respond to that.

At the same time, of course, women are also very much involved in needing to support their families in the context of this food security crisis, and so one of the things we have done is to adjust the existing food security programming in agriculture to be responsive in areas where it's actually still possible to work, and to create more resilience in communities by ensuring that they can continue to plant, grow and have access to seeds. As we know, a lot of smallholder farmers are women, and so these projects work directly with women to help them be better able to support their families.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

I would just like you to elaborate on access to abortion after rape.

I'm sorry. It's not to you. I am asking Ms. O'Neill.

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

I'm not able to speak to that topic.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

You're not able to....

Are you able to speak to that?

[Caroline Delany]

Abortion is illegal in Sudan, so we do not support those services in countries where they're illegal.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

However, it's not legal in places like Poland, where there are refugees coming from Ukraine, but we are working to ensure that women have access to that, so I don't know why we can't do that in Sudan.

[Caroline Delany]

I am afraid I don't have an answer for that. I can't compare with other countries.

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

I can speak, if the chair permits, related to the topic of women being directly at the table. I sense in the member's tone what I also sense from a number of Sudanese women as well, namely, “Enough of listening to us, enough of our being on the sidelines outside the door.” That's very much the tone that every single Sudanese woman brings to any political discussion.

To be clear, in Switzerland they did meet with all of the parties that were gathered within the group of internationals who were there. They did not meet with the RSF because the SAF did not come. They did not want to be perceived as favouring or meeting with only one side. They did meet with...what table there was. They were not permanent members, however, and they talked about that as something that was deeply frustrating. That's one reason that Canada supported this effort by the U.S. to bring women physically to the location to talk, as much as possible, and to have someone there with a the fancy title of “ambassador”, who somehow helps get closer to the table—that's very much where we were going.

Perhaps this is also, in part, an answer to the other member's question about whether we are supporting and how we get funds and assistance directly to smaller organizations. Canada has also been funding networks and organizations of women-led civil society organizations in Sudan to focus on prevention, essentially, and to get women involved in all sorts of conflict resolution and mediation at local levels, in local disputes; on training women—although none of them at this point need to be trained—to get access and advocate; and on giving space and opportunity to advocate for themselves. The focus is not just an interesting side story: It's getting to the centre.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

I'm glad to hear that because I think Resolution 1325's very essence is about getting women there...at the table, being part of the prevention and negotiation. I think that's important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Dr. Fry, I'm afraid we're out of time.

We now go to Mr. Bergeron. Mr. Bergeron, you have five minutes.... No, it's two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I was about to say, “Yay! Five minutes.”

Thank you.

Near the end of an article published last March in Le Monde diplomatique, historian Gérard Prunier asked what I see as an extremely important and relevant question. In his words, “The critical question is: Does Sudan still exist as a state?”

What do you think is left of the Sudanese state?

Is there actually a Sudanese state?

Who are the Canadian government's partners in what is left of the Sudanese state?

[Caroline Delany]

This feels like a complex question, so I don't mind the interruption here. Canada does recognize the state of Sudan. It's obvious that the activity and the situation there has created a significant amount of fragility and there is a real risk of fracturing in the country. At this point, what we're hoping not to see is further destabilization into its constituent parts.

The RSF and SAF do control parts of the country at this time, but even that border continues to change and move. The longer this goes on, the more difficult it is to see how that resolution will come to pass in terms of recognizing bringing the country back together again.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

In your opinion, what are the basic conditions for ensuring a bit of stability in the country relatively soon?

[Caroline Delany]

I think we all wish we had the answer to that question. One of the things we really do think is quite fundamental and is one of the areas of advantage in Canada's role is the question of how to engage with civilians and to give civil society and civilian actors an opportunity to influence this. This conflict is really a fight between two militaries who are interested in controlling power, access and the resources they can access in the country. They don't have an interest in having a government that will work for all citizens.

What is most important is to have ways of working through and supporting civilian actors to be a counterpoint to that and to not look at this conflict as one that needs to be solved by those two belligerents, but actually needs to be solved through the participation of all citizens. That means women, as the ambassador said. It also means youth. This is one of the reasons that Canada is working with civil society actors, in particular on a platform called Taqaddum. This is led by the former prime minister, who was ousted by the two belligerents in this particular conflict in a coup in 2021. Former Prime Minister Hamdok is leading Taqaddum as a broad coalition of civilians to be a counterpoint to these two militaries.

That is really our view, and it is the process that is going to have the most sustainable outcome. The evidence shows that the broader the participation is in determining the way forward and the more participation you have from women and youth, the greater the likelihood of success.