Foreign Affairs Committee on Sept. 26th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Mr. Aboultaif.

We now turn to MP Oliphant. You have five minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our guests today. Thank you for your work.

Even though it's been over a year, I would just begin by asking you to express our thanks to members of the mission who were evacuated and who continue to work.

In those days following the April 15 eruption of hostilities, I was following hour by hour what was happening in the breach of our mission, which was in a convenient place close to the airport. However, it was also in the worst place, being close to the airport. They were very precarious days, and they were very courageous. I hope you pass that on.

I'm a little less bleak about the future situation than Mr. Bergeron is. I think that my visits to Sudan have shown me the resilience, particularly of the women of Sudan and civil society organizations coming out of al-Bashir's tyranny. I think there was a tremendous resurgence of democratic hopefulness that was a threat to at least two people and their cohorts. I am hopeful.

I want to follow up a little bit on Mr. Epp's comments and questions, because he was getting to an important part.

Within the country there are about 10 million displaced people. There are about eight million internally displaced people and about two million refugees. Folks, that's literally the size of half of the countries of our world. Fifty per cent of the countries have more than 10 million and 50% have fewer than 10 million.

I want to think about the effects on Chad; Central African Republic; Ethiopia in particular; and a little bit on South Sudan, with family connections. I wonder what our capacity is to help the migrating people.

I've been to Al-Fāshir. It's not going to be easy to get in there with aid, because conflict continues. Four hours ago there was a major set of attacks in Sudan with the SAF coming back against the RSF.

What about the other countries? Where are we at, and how can Canadians help?

[Caroline Delany]

Yes, the situation in the neighbouring countries is quite severe. The largest recipients with regard to refugees across the borders are the Central African Republic, Chad and South Sudan.

One of the challenges for South Sudan is that there were a significant number of South Sudanese, who were living in Sudan, and so in fact it's people who are returning. In all of these cases, what we're also seeing is that the level of resilience of the people who are coming across the border is not as high as we would like to see with people migrating in this fashion. If you look at the folks returning to South Sudan, you see they often don't have homes to go home to. They've been gone for many decades. They might be the descendants of people who were refugees across the border during the conflict in South Sudan.

What we're seeing in all three of those countries is that the ability of host governments and the international community to be able to support them is really severely constrained.

I'll turn it over to my colleague to talk a little bit about the humanitarian response, but I will indicate the level of seriousness that exists there in terms of the number of displaced individuals and the capacity to support them.

[Julie Desloges]

We are providing assistance across the region in all of the countries that we have mentioned. As a reminder, these countries are experiencing their own pre-existing humanitarian crises with very vulnerable populations.

People are arriving from Sudan in these border areas that are extremely difficult to access. It is the rainy season as well. On top of everything right now, there's flooding across the region. Beyond the conflict, the number of people arriving is very challenging for humanitarian partners to access, but they are delivering assistance. We are supporting several partners, whether in Chad, South Sudan or in Ethiopia in these border regions.

As I mentioned, some of the concerns that we are seeing involve the logistics, but also the increased cost this is causing in a context of very limited funding overall for partners. There is the spread of communicable diseases as well in these not always the most salubrious situations for folks to be in.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Sudan is an exporter of food or has been an exporter of food. Do you know where most of the food that it exports goes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Answer very briefly, please.

[Caroline Delany]

I do not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We now go to the third round.

For the third round, it's four minutes for the Liberals and the Conservatives, and two minutes for the Bloc and the NDP.

We'll start off with MP Epp.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

It's the fourth round, but who's counting?

Madam Delany, in your opening round, you talked about and used the term meaningful peace.

Can you expand on that?

[Caroline Delany]

I think I'll also be turning that over to my colleague, the ambassador.

I think a meaningful peace is one that is a peace for everybody. It's a positive peace. It's a peace in which everyone has the opportunity to participate in the decisions that their government and their country are making. It's where services are provided to everyone. It's where, no matter where they live, what their gender is or what their ethnicity is, they have the opportunity to participate in the governance of their country and to access services.

That has not been the case in many decades, or ever, in Sudan. First, it was a result of the approach that President Bashir took during his time, where he really concentrated the benefits of the resources in the centre, in Khartoum, and neglected the periphery. We saw the results there with regard to the civil war with South Sudan and then later with Darfur, and the ultimate decision on the part of the South Sudanese, through a referendum, to separate from the country.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

If I understand correctly, you're talking about an internal process.

Is there an external party that could be a peace broker, like the AU or something along those lines, which is respected by all those parties?

[Caroline Delany]

The challenge in this context is that there are a number of different avenues through which it might be possible to broker a peace and there are many different actors.

The African Union is involved. They have hosted events, including with civilians, in order to discuss what a peace might look like in the country.

Then we have also regional actors like Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia hosted talks with the U.S. in Jeddah in the initial months of the conflict to try to come to an agreement between the RSF and the SAF.

We saw also the most recent Geneva talks hosted by Switzerland and led by the Americans, with participation from Saudi Arabia as well.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to turn the rest of my time over to my colleague, Ziad.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you, colleague.

I did ask a question about the exact role or the most significant role of the Canadian government or Canadian organizations. I mean, you're not going to give us answers now, but if possible, if we can get an answer in writing from you, that would be very helpful to the committee.

For my next question, over 18,800 people were killed since August 2023 in Sudan, based on reports we have. It seems like it's going in all different directions. It's not just between the people that the army is fighting. It's beyond.... Civilians, children and women are victims and are the ones paying the highest price.

Does the Canadian government believe that crimes and crimes against humanity have been committed in Sudan?

[Caroline Delany]

Yes, we do.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

What are we doing? Is this against individuals or organizations or both?

As Canada, how are we approaching this?

[Caroline Delany]

Going back a little, I want to underscore the support that Canada is providing to the civilian platform, Taqaddum. This is one of the broadest coalitions of civilian actors in Sudan. Of the participants at the founding conference that took place recently in Addis, 40% were women and a similar number were youth.

In terms of a Canadian role and finding a way forward, we are working through this option of supporting civilian voices to be a counterpoint to the belligerence.

In terms of the advocacy we're undertaking, Canada was one of the co-sponsors of the resolution of the fact-finding mission that has gathered the evidence and suggests that there have been war crimes and crimes against humanity.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Am I done, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You have four minutes, MP McKay.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair

What's the geopolitical significance of this conflict?

[Caroline Delany]

On the geopolitical significance of this conflict, I would say a couple of things.

First is its location in north Africa. It's a region that experiences its own instability for a variety of reasons. Another country experiencing this kind of de-stabilizing effect has the potential for it to spill over into its neighbours, which are often experiencing their own challenges with regard to resilience.

What happens then, of course, is that these mass movements of individuals create significant humanitarian concerns and significant migrant issues. I think our like-minded countries in Europe might be quite concerned about migration issues into Europe.

Further, any ungoverned spaces are bad for countries like Canada. Ungoverned spaces are places where terrorists and criminals can thrive. What we're seeing in Sudan is a vast area with no effective government.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

From the continuation of this conflict?

[Caroline Delany]

It's difficult for me to handle an answer because very few people, I think, benefit from the continuation of this conflict.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Well, Mr. Epp was raising the question of Chinese and Russian involvement. It seems to me, just based on your answer, that the Chinese would benefit from stability and that the Russians would benefit from instability. Is that fair? Is that a fair analysis?

[Caroline Delany]

Yes, the analysis that I offered was of Russia's interest, and the way that they've been operating is one that foments chaos. They have their own interests. For example, they very much want and are engaged in discussions to have access to a port on the Red Sea. They want access to the gold in the country. Oftentimes a degree of instability can create those opportunities, particularly with regard to access to gold in the country.