Foreign Affairs Committee on March 28th, 2022

[Jennie Chen]

As mentioned earlier, the case of Mr. Celil has been a priority for the Government of Canada since 2006. While we have tried repeatedly to obtain consular access to him, we have been unsuccessful to date. We have continued to raise his case at the highest levels with the Chinese government at every possible opportunity. We will continue—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

That's time.

I'm sorry, Ms. Chen. Go ahead. Finish your thought, please.

[Jennie Chen]

We will continue to use all available consular and diplomatic tools available to leverage emerging opportunities to advance Mr. Celil's case.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you so much, and thank you, Ms. McPherson.

We'll now go to Mr. Aboultaif.

Good morning. The floor is yours for five minutes, please.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us this morning.

The Xinjiang integrity declaration is a tool we are using to make sure we don't get involved in any trade that has human rights violations or labour violations and all.

Can you advise us on how the government is going to implement this? What specific tools will the government use to make sure that, with this declaration signed by the industry, the importers and the people involved in this whole trade are following this? Is it as effective as it should be, rather than becoming a symbolic tool?

[Jennie Chen]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to invite Mr. Hutchison to address this question.

[David Hutchison]

I'd like to start by saying that the trade commissioner service has taken great efforts to inform and educate all of its clients about the risks of doing business in Xinjiang and having exposure to those markets. We have advised all trade commissioner service clients that, should they be involved in any business-related activities in that region, they should sign the declaration. We have also made sure that, with any trade commissioner service clients we know of, we have reached out proactively to ensure they sign that declaration in order to ensure that they continue to receive TCS services.

I'd like to emphasize that the trade commissioner service is designed to support Canadian exporters of goods and services to access foreign markets. The trade commissioner service does not play a role in supporting Canadian importers.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

What is the point, then, of having this in place if it is not going to really deal with the products that we know shouldn't be sold in Canada, that should not be consumed by Canadians and that should not be supported at all? How do we make sure that we have that proper tool, rather than, as I said, it just being symbolic with a big name, the Xinjiang integrity declaration? What is the purpose of having this in place if it isn't going to do anything?

[David Hutchison]

The purpose of the declaration is to ensure that Canadian businesses that are active in the Chinese market—our exporters—are aware of the risks.

We've taken great efforts to provide information to Canadian businesses to ensure that they undertake the necessary due diligence to avoid being involved with any business activities that involve forced labour.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Shouldn't our measures be more meaningful than symbolic? Don't you agree that this is the way it should go?

I ask again, what is the point?

[David Hutchison]

The trade commissioner service of Canada doesn't have any enforcement mandate or capabilities, so I would not be in a position to answer that question.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

For the last years, we haven't been doing what we need to be doing as far as dealing with this situation. We keep consuming the products when we know we shouldn't be. We keep buying the products from this specific region when we know this is the wrong thing to do. There are no consequences at all for whoever trades or tries to make these kinds of transactions.

Again, I ask the question of the department: What are we doing? How serious are we about dealing with this?

[Jennie Chen]

I may just comment quickly.

I just want to add that, as a whole of government, we're quite seized with this issue of forced labour. This issue has a high level of complexity. It involves multiple groups within Global Affairs Canada and of course also with our ministry of labour and CBSA. This is a work in progress. There's a tremendous amount of work to be done. We would look forward to reporting back to you at a later date with a progress report.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Can I have a quick question, Chair?

Do you see any push-back from industry at all?

[Jennie Chen]

Mr. Hutchison, are you able to address that question? Have you heard from industry?

[David Hutchison]

The trade commissioner service has ongoing dialogue with industry. I am not aware of any push-back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, and thank you, Mr. Aboultaif.

Good morning, Mr. Sarai. You have five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

My first question is in regard to this declaration.

Have we seen or noticed any effect of it? Do you see trade declining in that region or the companies becoming more responsible?

[Jennie Chen]

Mr. Chair, I'd invite Mr. Hutchison to address this question.

[David Hutchison]

I'm not aware of any decline in Canadian trade with China related to the integrity declaration.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

You also mentioned earlier that there was French legislation that was the most robust out of some of the western countries.

Can you tell us how it's having a better effect or why it's more robust? If so, how can Canada take lessons from that legislation?

[Jennie Chen]

Mr. Patry, are you able to address this question?

[Rakesh Patry]

Yes. Thank you for the question.

I would just clarify at the outset that I wouldn't necessarily frame the French legislation as the most robust. I've noted that it has more robust enforcement measures than what the British or Australian legislation has in place.

The challenge we're seeing around the world, as more and more countries look at introducing supply chain legislation of this nature, is that there are different models out there that different countries are adopting. However, it is all still fairly recent. There hasn't been enough of an opportunity for outside stakeholders, experts or governments to evaluate and study these types of legislation to measure which models are the most effective.

We have seen some NGOs putting out some reports along these lines. I think many stakeholders point to what is referred to as a due diligence model, which is more akin to what the French have in place, as perhaps being more effective. There are no firm numbers to indicate the effectiveness of that, but I think there is a thinking that, when companies are required to report on what they have done to fix problems in their supply chains, as opposed to just reporting on their supply chains, that does carry a greater benefit or a greater likelihood of results.

I think that would probably be the best way to summarize the differences between them.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Has Canada thought about, or has your office thought about, doing no importing from Xinjiang unless China can prove the commodity or product is made without forced labour and without any of these repressive measures?

[Rakesh Patry]

I would say a couple of things on that.

The first is that I'd have to defer largely to the Canada Border Services Agency, which is the group responsible for enforcing the ban.

What I would say around the general idea of a region-wide ban is that part of the challenge is that Canada Border Services Agency interdicts goods on a shipment-by-shipment basis, but the larger challenge is that shipments that are coming into Canada, as I noted at the outset, tend to be labelled by country of origin and not by region of origin. There are also, as I said at the outset, challenges around complexity of supply chains, such that you could have cotton, for example, that is emanating out of Xinjiang but that makes its way through supply chains in four or five different countries before the final product comes into Canada.

There can be challenges for any organization or government agency in being able to determine where exactly different components of a particular product came from. This is part of the challenge that needs to be thought through and worked out, with government and industry working in collaboration to figure out how they can have a better depth of sight into supply chains to ensure that they can be cleaned adequately.