Foreign Affairs Committee on March 28th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Give a brief answer, please.

[Jennie Chen]

Yes, the case of Mr. Celil continues to be a priority for the Government of Canada, as well as all human rights cases vis-à-vis China going forward.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

How are you advocating for him?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson. That's your time. We can follow up in the next round.

Mr. Genuis, good morning. This is round two. You have five minutes. Please, go ahead.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I think what we're seeing today in this committee is a continuation of what has long been the story on this issue, which is collaborative cross-party work and leadership from the legislative branch, but a lack of active and effective engagement from the executive branch. Of course, the folks with us are officials who report to the executive branch. You're not accountable for the ultimate decisions. That comes down to ministers and cabinet.

It's important to note that very good questions are being asked by MPs from all parties, but there are some fundamental questions about where the government stands and how quickly we're moving that haven't been answered. In fairness, you're not in a position to answer.

Picking up on Mr. Bergeron's comments on the issue of genocide recognition, Canada is a party to the genocide convention, which means we have obligations as a state, regardless of any international process. We have an obligation as a state that includes the responsibility to protect if there is significant evidence of genocide.

In the view of the government, has the evidentiary threshold been crossed so as to trigger Canada's obligations and responsibility to protect under the genocide convention?

[Jennie Chen]

I might invite my colleague Ms. Knobel, from our legal department, to address this question.

[Carolyn Knobel, Director General and Deputy Legal Adviser, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you.

The determination of whether a situation constitutes a genocide must be done by a competent international court or a tribunal, bearing in mind the complex legal thresholds that are involved. I can note that the core element of the crime of genocide, as defined in international law and that separates it from other international crimes, is the existence of a specific intent to destroy a protected group in whole or in part.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry. I don't need to hear the definition of “genocide” again.

I want to say that the duty you've just expressed is at odds with what Irwin Cotler told the subcommittee, which is that state parties have an obligation under the genocide convention that they sign on to. It continues to be the story of deferring to international tribunals, but international investigations haven't happened in a timely way. There's been the Uighur tribunal in the U.K. There's been a lot of legal work done on this. It's a continuing obfuscation.

Can I ask you if the Canadian government recognizes any specific legal crimes that are being committed? Would you say there are crimes against humanity? What is the government prepared to say, not just in terms of a description of what's happening but also specific, prosecutable international crimes?

[Carolyn Knobel]

What we have been calling for is an investigation and seeking corroborating evidence. That is why Canada calls for an independent investigation for the situation in Xinjiang. Our government continues to monitor the situation and is working with partners.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Again, we've heard legal scholars before the subcommittee who say we have obligations, and I believe we have obligations, under the genocide convention. What is the point of being party to a genocide convention if our response is that someone else has to do the investigative work? I think I've made the point on that.

I want to ask about the International Finance Corporation, which is a significant development partner for Canada. IFC has approximately $486 million U.S. in direct loans and equity investments in four companies operating in the Uighur region. Here is some information about those companies:

Evidence drawn from corporate disclosures and publicity campaigns, government directives and state media, and other publicly accessible information reveals that these four companies have:

directly participated in and benefited from state-sponsored forced labour programs,

directly participated in and benefited from state-sponsored compulsory land expropriation,

participated in programs that require minoritized citizens to take oaths to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and be subjected to indoctrination....

There are other various concerning practices.

What has the government's engagement been with the International Finance Corporation around divesting from investments in the Uighur region?

[Jennie Chen]

I'm not sure.

David, is this something you can address, or is this something that I may refer elsewhere?

[David Hutchison]

I'm not familiar with this organization. I suspect it's perhaps not a Canadian company that would be a client of the trade commissioner service, but....

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

This is the International Finance Corporation, which is a major development partner for Canada. I think my question was clear, and I'll look forward to a response from officials in writing after this committee.

I want to say that I'm very supportive of a rebuttable presumption as well. I want to ask if the government is aware of any Canadian products being excluded from entry into the United States since the adoption of the Uyghur Forced Labour Prevention Act in the United States.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Give a very quick answer, please, in the interest of time.

[Rakesh Patry]

Not to my knowledge, no.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Would you follow up in writing as well to clarify definitively, yes or no, if any Canadian products or products produced by Canadian companies have been excluded from the U.S. market as a result of that new legislation.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Genuis, thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Ehsassi, please.

Good morning. You have five minutes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for appearing before our committee.

My first question would be a follow-up to the question asked by Mr. Bergeron.

Ms. Chen, you did say that your department stands ready to provide advice to the minister as to whether genocide has occurred or not in this particular case? I was just wondering if it is not standard practice for the department to prepare a legal opinion on an issue such as this.

[Jennie Chen]

This policy work is ongoing with the department. I'm not in a position to anticipate or foreshadow any of the advice that we might be preparing, but we are working closely together within Global Affairs Canada and also with our like-mindeds to ensure a coordinated effort.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

This motion was adopted in February of last year. It's now been a year. Is there any idea as to why it may have taken as long as it has?

[Jennie Chen]

I think what's been important for us is that it is an independent investigation by international experts. This has long been our position for many years now. Again, we are looking forward to Madam Bachelet's upcoming visit to China.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

In the event, let's say, the Chinese government does not allow Ms. Bachelet to visit, are you saying that the department will not be preparing a legal opinion?

[Jennie Chen]

I do not believe I am able to comment on what may or may not happen at this time, but again, that policy work is ongoing. We continue to assess and work with our partners.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I'll go to my second question. As you know, the U.S. State Department earlier this month actually prepared a list of PRC officials who will not be granted visas because of labour practices in China. Have you had a chance to look at that list?

[Jennie Chen]

To my knowledge that list has not been made public due to privacy considerations.