Foreign Affairs Committee on March 28th, 2022

[Rakesh Patry]

I don't believe anyone here would have data on how many shipments have come into Canada at this point. We don't have customs information along those lines. I don't know whether the Canada Border Services Agency would have that information.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Morantz.

Next we have Mr. Oliphant, for five minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses.

Thank you also to other colleagues and committee members

This is one of those issues where we are quite united in our concern, not always in our strategy as to what we do next but I don't see much.... As I listen to the questions today, we're all sharing the concern and asking our officials to help us push the limits a little bit.

I have a couple of questions. I know there are always privacy concerns with any consular case, but the case of Huseyin Celil has come up today. I am wondering. There are some significant differences between this case and some of our other consular cases I've dealt with.

Can you explain the difficulty that ensues because of dual nationality, because he maintains Chinese and Canadian citizenship, and how is that perceived by the Chinese government?

[Jennie Chen]

As you well know, China does not recognize dual citizenship. Of course, Canada recognizes his Canadian citizenship. That has never wavered for us since 2006. However, in general, we have a long-standing challenge in dealing with the Chinese government with regard to dual nationals.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

This would not be just this case. Are there other dual nationals who we are not able to get access to?

[Jennie Chen]

That is correct.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I would add that I have met with his family, and everyone on the committee should also extend their thoughts and concerns to his wife and sons, who are in Canada and continue to be brave as they wait for news about their husband and father.

I want to get into Michelle Bachelet's trip proposed for May, which we understand will happen. Canada really led the way in Geneva at the UN Human Rights Council to push for her to request a trip. It took quite a while for China to agree to give her access to Xinjiang.

Am I setting up too much hope for a report to come out of that? A number of human rights groups have called for a report before her trip, but it would seem to me appropriate to have a report after her trip. Am I being naive to think this could be an important report that we should actually be waiting for and listening to?

[Jennie Chen]

Yes, I would agree with your assessment that indeed the outcome of her visit, whether it's a report or other announcement, will be scrutinized by all foreign governments and all watchers of the developments in Xinjiang.

Perhaps, if I may, I will invite my colleague Catherine Godin to come on the line, who is our director general for human rights.

Madame Godin, if you have anything to add, go ahead.

[Catherine Godin, Director General, Human Rights, Freedoms and Inclusion, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Ms. Chen.

Mr. Chair, if I may, I'd like to add a few details.

Yes, the high commissioner has requested this visit. Back in 2018, she had expressed a desire to go. The Canadian government had indeed repeatedly requested that she be given free, meaningful and unfettered access. We expect the Chinese government to provide this type of access to Ms. Bachelet when she visits in May. We will study the conclusions reached with great interest.

We see this as an important visit, part of the body of information that we are assessing and to which we attach great importance. We've already requested that her report be made public. We, of course, expect a report or a press release to be issued after her visit. The details will follow later on, but we see this as a key moment. We expect the Chinese government to give the high commissioner free and unfettered access at that time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Oliphant, Ms. Chen and Ms. Godin.

Mr. Bergeron now has the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To be quite frank, I'd like to clearly state that no one here is looking to grill the officials from Global Affairs Canada.

We are primarily looking to understand why, unlike a number of allies with whom we have a relatively close relationship, including the United States, the Canadian government refuses to acknowledge that the facts reported to us are truly acts that meet the definition of genocide found in the U.N. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, to which Canada is a party.

For example, the definition of genocide includes “killing members of the group”. While it may be more difficult to prove that this has taken place, some information indicates that it obviously has.

The definition also includes “causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group”. One might have some trouble defining what constitutes causing serious physical or mental harm to a member of the group.

It also refers to “deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part”. Things are already beginning to get clearer.

Item (d) talks about “measures intended to prevent births within the group”. During our conversation, Ms. Chen acknowledged the existence of measures to impede births within the group. Now, if I remember correctly, only one of these conditions must be proven for genocide to be recognized.

The definition also includes “forcibly transferring children of the group to another group”, which was mentioned a little earlier.

So what's stopping us from recognizing this as genocide, if only because births are being prevented within the group?

[Jennie Chen]

As mentioned earlier, we take these calls for the declaration of a genocide very seriously, and indeed this is ongoing work and there are conversations taking place within our department. To answer your question, again I might turn to my colleague Madam Knobel from our legal department.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Be very brief, please, in the interest of time.

[Carolyn Knobel]

I won't go into solicitor-client privilege information, but I will note that the specific intent requirement is key to the definition of genocide. Absent a finding of that specific intent, crimes could amount to things such as crimes against humanity or war crimes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Ms. Knobel.

I'd also like to thank Mr. Bergeron and the witnesses.

Ms. McPherson, please, you have two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to follow up a little more on this visit that the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights will be making in May. I think all of us here have great hope for that visit and that the Chinese government will allow access and that we will get more information. However, I'm not 100% hopeful there, of course.

I'm thankful for those who have pushed for this visit. I think it's very important, but if the commissioner is not given the access that she requires, if she is not able to gather the information she needs, what will be the Canadian government's next steps? How will you proceed from that point on?

[Jennie Chen]

As mentioned earlier, we look forward to this upcoming visit and the outcomes of her report and/or findings. As mentioned, we are not able to say one way or the other what would be the content or outcomes. It's difficult to speculate at this time what those might be.

I think what we are most interested in is the growing amount of information that is now available to the public, to foreign governments and to the international community. I think we have already proven that Canada is prepared to work with the international community and the multilateral system to continue to advance this work.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

This might again be asking you to guesstimate on the future, but we did have the international human rights subcommittee declare a genocide. We did have the foreign affairs committee declare a genocide. We did have the Parliament of Canada declare a genocide.

If the commissioner does find concrete evidence of genocide, will the Canadian government be prepared to acknowledge that there is a genocide happening against the Uighur people?

[Jennie Chen]

Certainly the outcomes of her report will be very important to ongoing policy deliberations. Yes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

I will cede my time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Ms. McPherson.

We go over to Mr. Chong, please, for five minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is a very quick one. Can officials tell us the last time that the Government of Canada made a representation to the Government of the People's Republic of China about Mr. Huseyin Celil? If officials do not know this information could they provide that to the clerk after the meeting is finished?

[Jennie Chen]

I do not have the exact date and time with me, but we would be pleased to provide that information to you.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

On the issue of imports of products that have been produced or that involve forced or coerced labour, we know that Xinjiang produces about a fifth of the world's tomatoes. Last November, CBC Marketplace, The Guardian and Investigative Reporting Project Italy found that Canadian grocery stores were full of tomato products that came from forced and coerced Uighur labour. Despite that high-profile investigation and despite the measures announced by the government last year in January, the Government of Canada has only stopped one shipment of products from China tied to forced Uighur labour.

Given that Global Affairs designed and announced the Xinjiang measures in January of last year, how does Global Affairs assess the effectiveness of these measures?