Evidence of meeting #20 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chinese.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank our witnesses for being here. This is very fascinating and very interesting testimony.
Perhaps I'll follow up on some of the comments that Mr. Bergeron has made before me, and give Dr. Tsang a moment to complete his comments.
The New Democrats have advocated as well for Taiwan's inclusion and meaningful participation in several multilateral institutions and meetings, including, of course, the World Health Assembly and the International Civil Aviation Organization. The reason that I have advocated for that is that I do believe that Taiwan has those valuable experiences that they can contribute to areas of global health, particularly how the pandemic was dealt with, as well as with regard to aviation safety and security. Monsieur Bergeron mentioned the importance of aviation and Taiwan.
I'd love to hear more comments from you, particularly, Dr. Tsang to start with, and then Dr. Brown, if I could. You talk about China bullying and the need to work with allies. You talk about the need for us to work collectively. What I take from that is that Canada should be liaising more with some of those other economies to make these decisions collaboratively.
Can you talk a little bit from the other side about what there is to gain if Taiwan is able to participate in these multilateral institutions and meetings?
Professor, SOAS University of London, As an Individual
Thank you.
I think Taiwan has a huge amount to contribute to the international community. Looking simply at health and the COVID pandemic, Taiwan was one of the very first governments that sounded the alarm bell. If we had listened, we might have been able to contain the pandemic at the beginning of that process. We didn't do that. The rest is, as they say, history.
We are talking about a very significant medium power. If we use European countries as a yardstick, Taiwan is right in the middle of the EU countries in terms of its capacity and scope for innovation and change, and it's been quite a believable international citizen, so there's every reason to do that.
I think there's something even more important for doing that, which is that, for all the problems of the international liberal order, it is basically a rules-based order that is catering more to the kinds of values that as democracies we believe in. The Chinese government is working to change that, and by forcing governments to play by Chinese rules, it is also changing how international organizations, including the UN, function. That is not a direction of travel we should want to see.
I'll stop here and hand it back to you.
NDP
Professor of Chinese Studies, King's College London, and Director, Lau China Institute, As an Individual
Earlier on, Steve referred to the kind of co-operation amongst many different partners in working with Taiwan and the opportunities in Taiwan. I don't want to be negative, but every country in Europe and North America and those in the Asia-Pacific that are involved in this has very different dynamics in this issue and different priorities. Although, at the moment, there seems to be a kind of consensus because there's quite a lot of negativity and hostility towards China—and of course, what it's doing towards Taiwan is worrying—I don't feel so relaxed that there will be a great deal of consensus as we go forward amongst different countries.
It's going to be difficult, and the reason why it's going to be difficult is that the economic indicators look pretty grim, and countries are going to probably be focused on how they're going to do something about that. The U.K. is an example of this. I don't know whether we can say we're supportive of Taiwan—yes, spiritually and emotionally, and this is good. I don't know what action will actually follow, because saying is one thing but to do stuff is completely different. The brute fact is that Taiwan is a tiny economy compared with China. It's absolutely tiny.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Of course.
Dr. Brown, since I just had you there, you spoke a little bit about the impact of what's happening with the Russian Federation with their illegal invasion of Ukraine and the global community there. What do you think China will think of the potential of Sweden and Finland becoming part of NATO? Will that impact China and their actions?
Professor of Chinese Studies, King's College London, and Director, Lau China Institute, As an Individual
I don't think it's a huge issue. I don't think China has any big view on NATO, apart from when, of course, 23 or 24 years ago it bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade.
I think its relationship with Russia—we assume—is a positive one, but Russians I've talked to and the Chinese recognize that it's a leader-to-leader relationship. It's Putin and Xi Jinping. Underneath that, historically, of course, there isn't a great deal of unity. It's not like this is a relationship built on a deep level of trust. I don't think we should forget that in looking at this issue.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
The change would be pretty substantial and pretty monumental if Putin were no longer the leader of the Russian Federation. That would change that dynamic. That would change how China would evaluate its next steps.
Professor of Chinese Studies, King's College London, and Director, Lau China Institute, As an Individual
Yes. I don't think China wants instability. It doesn't mind a weaker west, but it certainly doesn't want a west falling apart around its ears.
Putin is someone they've invested a huge amount in, and they don't want Putin to then go feral and start doing crazy things either. They may, at that point, have to come down from their neutrality, but at the moment, I think they're just going to stick this one out.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann
Thank you, Ms. McPherson, and thank you to the witnesses.
Colleagues, just on time management, we started with this panel at 4:05. To go to the full hour leaves us about 15 minutes.
I'd like to get a full second round in. I would suggest that we pare back the allocations within that round to give each member a chance to ask at least one question. That would involve three-minute and one-and-a-half minute allocations.
If colleagues are amenable to that, we will start with Mr. Morantz, please for three minutes.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
How much longer will the committee have with the first panel? Until what time?
Bloc
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann
That would bring us to 6:05 p.m. We had two full hours scheduled with the witnesses.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann
I'm not sure. It's up to the committee members to decide. If the committee agrees, we can take the full two hours, but if not, we can shorten it up.
Liberal
Liberal
Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC
Chair, I can stay virtually to 5:45, but I won't be able to go past that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann
If necessary, if members wish substitute somebody in, they can do that.
There's one small point of business, which is the approval of the budget that I will need to pitch tomorrow on your behalf before the subcommittee of the Liaison Committee. It's just to make sure that the committee can travel. That is absolutely essential for tomorrow. I just need a motion and approval to be able to go to the subcommittee. I would propose we do that very quickly after this hour, before our second panel, and then it's at the discretion of members if they wish to stay for the full two hours until 6:05. Under that time frame, 6:05 would be the latest.
If that's agreeable, we'll go to Mr. Morantz for three minutes.
Ms. McPherson.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
I'm sorry, Chair. I just wanted to alert you that Mr. Ehsassi had his hand up.
