Evidence of meeting #21 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Françoise Vanni  Director, External Relations and Communications, Global Fund To Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Erica Pereira

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I listened closely to what the member had to say, and I couldn't help but be shocked at the crocodile tears being shed by the Conservative members supposedly because we are preventing the study on Ukraine from moving forward. I would like to remind members that, in an effort to get past this filibustering, a motion was put forward in the House to allow committees to travel, including to Ukraine. However, the Conservatives, not wanting the filibuster to end until the Liberals withdraw their motion on women's reproductive health, said they would vote against all motions. That includes the motion in the House that would allow this committee to travel to Ukraine and Poland, meet with Ukrainian refugees and see how they were being received in Poland. The committee is also supposed to go to Sweden and Finland to support our allies in their request to join NATO, and travel to Belgium precisely to meet with NATO officials.

It is surprising, then, to hear the members bellyache about the fact that we won't be able to discuss issues relating to Ukraine, when they are the ones who continue to prevent this committee from finalizing its travel plans. Think how much our Ukrainian allies would appreciate seeing the members of this committee come to their country to learn first-hand all about the challenges they are facing. Ukraine's former ambassador to Canada requested that Canadian officials travel to Ukraine, and the Conservatives are the ones stopping it from happening.

It is shocking, to say the least, to sit here and listen as our friends in the Conservative Party shed their crocodile tears, in an attempt to mislead people and make them think that we don't want to move forward with the study on Ukraine. The fact is they are the ones throwing a wrench in the works and preventing us from finalizing the trip.

Mr. Chair, I don't think anyone would believe that the intent of Ms. Fry's motion is to supersede the committee's ongoing studies. From the outset, when Ms. Fry decided to bring her motion to the committee for debate and a vote—a motion that had been put on notice—I voiced my concern because that isn't how the committee usually operates. Normally, decisions about the committee's future business are based on discussions at the steering committee level, and then, the committee decides. While I recognize Ms. Fry has consistently maintained that the committee should examine the issue, I was shocked, to say the least, at the unusual and peculiar way in which it was brought before the committee. For months, she has stressed how important it is that the committee study the reproductive health of women, but we haven't had the opportunity to do so.

Unless I'm mistaken, no one is claiming that the study she is proposing should take priority over those under way. The Conservatives' own filibustering is the very thing preventing the committee from discussing Taiwan, Ukraine, vaccine equity and the bills Mr. Genuis so wants us to discuss. I find that deeply disturbing. I can't seem to find a polite way to express what I'm thinking, but suffice it to say, it's disturbing to watch the Conservative members partake in this filibuster on the pretext that we want to discuss something other than Ukraine.

It is equally disturbing to watch my esteemed colleague Mr. Morantz impute motives and comments to the new Ukrainian ambassador to Canada. I think the new ambassador is perfectly capable of understanding that this isn't about putting the Ukraine study on hold, even though the Conservatives have already delayed the study by quite a few meetings. I think she understands that this is about making sure the committee examines women's reproductive health at some point. Far be it from me to impute motives to the Ukrainian ambassador or put words in her mouth, but I'm quite sure she would think it quite relevant for the committee to examine the issue, which affects over 50% of the world's population. It's certainly an issue worthy of our attention.

Now I'll come back to Mr. Genuis's amendment, which would put a halt to this filibuster, so that we could get back to the studies and bills that require the committee's attention.

I explained why I have concerns about the second part of the motion. As it currently stands, it refers to the study. The study being referred to in the motion in amendment is the same one mentioned at the very beginning of the motion, where it says “this study”, in other words, the study on women's reproductive health. The amendment deals with the committee's work plan for the coming weeks and months, once we have completed the studies on Ukraine, vaccine equity and Taiwan, as well as studies on legislation sent from the House of Commons.

I already had concerns about that part of the amendment, but Mr. Oliphant said something that troubled me with respect to the first part of the amendment. Talking about our study on Taiwan, he said that the Special Committee on Canada-China relations had been reconstituted at the Conservatives' request. I won't rehash the speech I gave in the House to tell you how strange it is to me that the Conservatives suddenly have a renewed interest in Canada-China relations now that the Afghanistan committee is about to wrap up its work. In any case, since the decision was made to reconstitute the committee, perhaps it's better to let it examine the issue of Taiwan, and we could send the committee everything we've done thus far. We could also opt to continue or finalize our study. Basically, we first need to decide what we want to do about the study on Taiwan.

If I may, Mr. Chair, I'd like to move a subamendment, which I've already sent to the clerk. It reads as follows:

That the words “after the completion of the committee’s studies on” and “prescribing the manner in which the study is to proceed” be replaced with “the committee makes a decision on the studies before it on” and “specifying the manner in which the studies be undertaken”, respectively.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I'm sorry, but I didn't fully follow the amendment. Mr. Bergeron suggested he sent it to the clerk. Can it be distributed? Is it ready for distribution?

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

We're still waiting for the translation.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay. I assume it will be distributed when the translation is in, but if it's acceptable, could Mr. Bergeron just repeat the amendment again so we're clear on what we're debating?

Thanks.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Mr. Bergeron.

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Oh, the joys of virtual proceedings. My apologies, Mr. Chair. The subamendment reads as follows:

That the words “after the completion of the committee’s studies on” and “prescribing the manner in which the study is to proceed” be replaced with “the committee makes a decision on the studies before it on” and “specifying the manner in which the studies be undertaken”, respectively.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

I'm sorry. I'm having a hard time following that.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Mr. Bergeron, could I ask you to repeat that one more time, please.

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Mr. Chair, I would be glad to repeat it. Everyone knows that repetition is edifying.

That the words “after the completion of the committee’s studies on” and “prescribing the manner in which the study is to proceed” be replaced with “the committee makes a decision on the studies before it on” and “specifying the manner in which the studies be undertaken”, respectively.

Allow me to explain.

The change I'm proposing to the first part of the amendment would ensure that the committee had made a decision on the studies under way on Ukraine, vaccine equity and Taiwan, as well as legislation sent by the House of Commons. By making a decision on the studies under way, I mean that the committee could either complete the studies or decide otherwise in the case of Taiwan.

The reason for the change to the last part of the amendment is simply to refer to “studies”, in the plural, rather than “study”, the idea being to mention the various studies proposed by the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.

I hope that clarifies things for Mr. Genuis.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

If we could ask the clerk to provide us with an unofficial translation while we wait for the official translation to come in, I think that would help all members.

Yes, Madam Clerk.

5:25 p.m.

The Clerk

Mr. Chair, just give me one second here. I think I have it so that it can at least be understood by all members.

I will read the amendment as it would read if the subamendment were to just replace those words, so that it makes more sense.

What I have is, “and that this study not take place until the committee makes a decision on the studies before it on Ukraine, vaccine equity and Taiwan as well as studies on legislation sent from the House of Commons; and further that it not take place until the subcommittee on agenda and procedure submits a report specifying the manner in which the studies be undertaken”.

That's unofficially what I have.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

How much longer, approximately, before we get the official translation?

5:25 p.m.

The Clerk

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I don't have a time frame on that.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Okay.

Is it the wish of the members to actually debate this subamendment?

Yes. Did you want to speak to the subamendment?

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

I just want to say that it's still very unclear. The reference to this study is very unclear. I would rather wait and see the whole motion written in front of us, so at least we know how to decide on it, if that's okay.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Is it the wish of the committee to suspend for 10 minutes?

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

We could suspend for a few minutes until we get the translation.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Okay. We'll suspend for five minutes.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Members, the clerk has done the translation and shared it with us. She has gone back to the member who moved this subamendment. The member has approved the English translation of the French subamendment.

The clerk has kindly emailed it to all of our emails for your ease of reference. However, for those who may not have access to their email, I will read it out.

The subamendment reads as follows, “That the words 'and that this study not take place until the committee makes a decision on the studies before it on Ukraine, vaccine equity and Taiwan, as well as studies on legislation sent from the House of Commons; and further that it not take place until the subcommittee on agenda and procedure submits a report specifying the manner in which the studies be undertaken' be inserted between the words 'rights globally' and the words 'and that the committee report its findings to the House'.”

That is the official English translation of the subamendment introduced by Mr. Bergeron.

Mr. Oliphant.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

There are two things.

I'd like to get on the speakers list. I don't know how you're handling that.

On a point of order, I didn't really think about this before, but because I'm now studying the amendment more closely, could I get a sense from the chair on the appropriate nature of a negative motion? There is precedent that motions that tell you something you can't do have not been allowed. Maybe the clerk could advise on the appropriateness. It may be okay in a subamendment or an amendment, but to ask a committee not to do something, I think, may be problematic. I hadn't really noticed it until I had the help of Mr. Bergeron's amendment and I really looked at it.

May 16th, 2022 / 12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you, Mr. Oliphant.

I've had an opportunity to check with the clerk. That is an interesting issue you have raised, Mr. Oliphant.

My understanding is that you are correct. You cannot have a negative wording that will essentially have the same purpose as the amendment if it gets you to the same place and all you have done is make it negative. However, in this case, this particular rule does not seem to apply. These are simply Mr. Bergeron's instructions. Although the principle is valid, it does not apply to the subamendment before us.

If members would like to discuss this subamendment, please do let me know.

Mr. Genuis.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Is there a new speakers list, or are we going through the...?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Now the focus is on the subamendment, unless members would not like to debate it.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay, so we have a new speakers list for members who wish to speak to the subamendment.