Evidence of meeting #23 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was russia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
We would certainly appreciate it, Minister, if you would send a copy of the permit to the committee clerk.
I have one last question for you, unless I have time for more.
The permit is revocable, so under what conditions could the Government of Canada decide to revoke the permit?
Liberal
Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
Of course, any such decision would be made in co‑operation with our allies.
I can also say that the Government of Canada has no involvement in the business relationship between Siemens and Gazprom, so it will also be up to Siemens to decide—
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Marty Morantz
I'm sorry to interrupt, Minister. I have to move on to Ms. McPherson for her six minutes.
Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much to both of the ministers for being with us today and for answering some of my questions prior to this meeting. I appreciate your time.
Like my colleague from the Bloc, I appreciate that this would have been a very difficult decision for you to make.
I want to start today by asking some questions about the turbines and the sanctions regime writ large.
As much as we've heard from Minister Joly that we have 1,600 sanctions in place, I think Canadians are mostly concerned about whether our sanctions are working. I say this because the sanctions don't matter—it doesn't matter how many sanctions there are or who's being sanctioned—if Canada can choose to waive those sanctions or if those sanctions aren't being enforced. If the sanction regime isn't working, it doesn't matter how many sanctions we have or what we're sanctioning if we're not following through on them.
All of us here want to do everything we can for the Ukrainian people. This has been one of those moments in time when I have seen members from all parties work so hard to make sure that Ukrainians understand that Canada and Canadian parliamentarians want to support them.
To start, Minister Joly, the thing that keeps popping into my mind is that this whole decision was based on the idea that there is any trust or belief that Putin would, in fact, continue to provide gas to Germany. We have seen him weaponize energy already and we have seen him weaponize food. There are 40 million people around the world who are at risk of starvation because of Putin.
He lies. We know Putin lies. We know he is not going to act in good faith. We know he is not going to follow the rules.
Why call the bluff, as you say, when realistically, he's already told us and the world what he intends to do. We already knew the bluff was there. What we've done is weaken our sanction regime and weaken Canada's stance standing with Ukraine, and yet we haven't helped to get gas to Germany.
My question to you is very straightforward. Will you cancel the waiver for the other turbines immediately?
Liberal
Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
The goal, of course, is to work together amongst allies to make sure that we are united and strong when taking decisions, because, really, Canada in this context is in-between Germany and Ukraine. Our goal was really to make sure that we could all be united.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Do it quickly though, just because you know how little time we have.
Liberal
Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
I know, I know.
Our goal is not to.... Like you said, because Putin is lying and we don't trust him, we don't want to give him any form of justification or pretext. That's why we're calling his bluff. That's also why we want to make sure that he doesn't use the number of turbines as an issue. It's one permit, one time, and it is done.
Liberal
Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
Now, of course, our goal is to make sure that, should Siemens and Gazprom take a different commercial decision, of course the Government of Canada will take stock of that decision.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
At this point, you're leaving it in the hands of the Russian Federation and Siemens to make a decision on whether or not the Canadian sanctions will be waived.
Can you tell me, Minister, why is the turbine still in Germany? Why is it still there?
Liberal
Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
That's up to the Germans and the Russians to answer. Our goal was to send the turbine to Germany.
Also I will say, while this is obviously something that has attracted a lot of attention, Jonathan and I are actively working with Germans and Europeans to find solutions for Germany as they're decreasing their reliance on cheap gas.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
It's very important that we do that, and I appreciate that. Before I run out of time—
Liberal
Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
From 56%, I think they're now at 26%, and they need to decrease it even more.
NDP
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
In the meantime, I have some questions about the sanctions themselves. As I mentioned, Canadians want to know if the measures your government is taking are having the desired effect. I've put questions on the Order Paper. I've asked questions in the House of Commons, and I can't get responses. In fact, the response I got back from your government was appalling. Global Affairs Canada basically said that because the data was not complete or may not be complete, the department refused to share even a partial list.
I had to, in fact, raise a question of privilege in the House of Commons, because my job as a parliamentarian to hold you to account was impossible to do. What I need to know is how many assets Canada has seized to date. When will we be able to get that information? How do we know how the sanctions are being determined? Who is working on this, and where is this information? How can we get it?
Liberal
Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
Heather, I think your questions are extremely valid because, obviously, it's important not only to have a sanctions regime but also to be able to implement it.
The information we have is the information that was made public through the RCMP, who are not under Global Affairs Canada but are implementing the sanctions. At this point, the latest information in June was that around $120 million worth of assets had been frozen and that $289 million in transactions had been blocked as the result of the sanctions.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Were those specifically under paragraphs 4(1)(b) or the 4(1)(a) of the Special Economics Measures Act?
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Were these seized under paragraph 4(1)(b) of the Special Economics Measures Act, or were all the sanctions and responses issued under the broader paragraph 4(1)(a)?