Foreign Affairs Committee on Aug. 4th, 2022

[Sabine Sparwasser]

Just as Melita said, we're very grateful that Canada took the waiver in order to avoid unintended consequences of its sanctions. It was something that has been discussed amongst the G7 as well, and our U.S. partners also welcomed that decision. In the meantime, with other sanctions, we have been going ahead and we have been trying to find sanctions that really hurt Russian interests very effectively. It is a process that we do together.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

I know hypotheticals are things that we generally don't want to engage in, but when it comes to Germany's concerns about what would have transpired if the Government of Canada had not granted this permit, can you please elaborate upon those, Ambassador Sparwasser?

[Sabine Sparwasser]

Well, it's a fifth dimension; it's speculation, but I do believe that the reduction of the flow of gas in Nord Stream 1 would have been entirely blamed on the sanctions of the G7 and the EU against Russia. We're fighting a hybrid war. It's a conventional war that Ukraine suffers and fights very, very bravely, but we're also in a war on energy, we're in a war on food supplies and we're in a disinformation war. I think our point of view was that we would have lost significantly in the disinformation war if that turbine had not been able to be delivered. Right now, this turbine sits in Germany and it is very clear that it was an excuse, a pretext, because Gazprom is not picking it up and they're inventing very strange excuses for not doing so.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

I have to move on now to Mr. Bergeron, who has the floor for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all three ambassadors for being with us today. We appreciate it very much.

My first question will be for Her Excellency Ms. Kovaliv, ambassador of Ukraine.

Your Excellency, since the beginning of these hearings, we've been hearing the argument that permission to return this turbine to Germany has exposed Vladimir Putin's bluff. Everyone also seems to agree that Vladimir Putin had set us up.

Don't you feel that we simply fell into the trap?

[Yuliia Kovaliv]

Thank you.

I think there is no need, as I've said, to waive the sanctions to call Putin's bluff. If we recall back to January this year, there was the statement by the Russian deputy foreign minister that "We will not attack, strike, invade, 'whatever' Ukraine." There is this and many other examples, including that 24 hours after Istanbul initiative was signed Putin was attacking the Odessa port, where the first vessel was preparing to leave for Istanbul and then for Lebanon, with missiles.

I think this is what we already understand. It's good to hear that both the German government and Canadian government, and the EU, understood once more the evidence that Putin bluffs. This turbine has already been in Germany for nearly three weeks and yesterday very clearly Gazprom said it would not accept it. The thing is, why should the other five turbines need to be sent to Germany and then to Russia? We also need to understand that this waiver is not a waiver to send the turbines to Germany. Everybody knows this waiver is directly to the Russian war machine and Gazprom. That is the evidence we all understand now.

I think this debate today needs to be focused on stopping and not allowing Putin to further blackmail our EU partners and fuel the energy war.

This is the only way to do it, to revoke—as it was stated, the permit is revokable—this permit.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Your Excellency.

We in the Bloc Québécois have made it clear that the least that could be done to allow this transfer would be for Germany and Canada to increase sanctions and, as much as possible, military aid to Ukraine.

I know that there have been a lot of announcements from Canada, both in terms of sanctions and in terms of military assistance. In terms of the sanctions, we've talked about this a number of times, that we're not quite sure the Government of Canada knows exactly what the effect of those sanctions is. As for military aid, I think you can tell us what the real effect of these promises of military aid is.

Is military aid being provided within the expected time frame?

[Yuliia Kovaliv]

Thank you.

First of all, let me thank you for the unprecedented financial support the Canadian government has already provided to Ukraine, which helps many Ukrainians have access to social support in the country in the war.

Since we are fighting for our sovereignty on the battlefield every day, the much-needed military support in Ukraine is the urgent issue. This was discussed with you when you invited me for the first time, and we have discussed it with you at many other meetings. It's really crucially important to not only announce this military support but also to get it on the battlefield. Each day we are losing the best Ukrainians to protect our country. We would much welcome that in three weeks, when we have the independence day of Ukraine, this announced military support would be a great present to Ukrainian soldiers on our independence day.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Your Excellency.

I'd now like to turn to the ambassador of the Federal Republic of Germany, Her Excellency Ms. Sparwasser.

Your Excellency, I was a little surprised not to hear a few words in French in your opening remarks. Your accept is so lovely.

In any event, on July 12, on the CBC program Power and Politics, you said that Canada's decision to grant a permit to return the turbine to Germany helped the country free itself from dependence on Russian energy.

How did sending the turbine reduce Germany's dependence on Russian‑produced energy?

[H.E. Sabine Sparwasser]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

I'll try to answer a little in French, but it's a bit harder for me.

I'll do it in English.

The delivery of the turbine was initially supposed to be a measure that would allow more gas to flow. We were not sure that this would happen. We were testing what would happen, but we had our doubts from the beginning that the Russians would increase the flow of gas. It would have been, for Europeans' sake, for many states in the European Union and for us, very beneficial if that had happened in order to fill our reservoirs.

Right now we're at a 20% flow. I don't think we have very high expectations that this is going to increase. What it has done now is to make it very, very clear that the turbine was not the issue; it's the willingness of Russia to try to divide Europe, to cut Europe off. We are now preparing very actively for the emergency that may be coming this winter.

Melita has named the emergency plans that the EU is preparing. I have started to tell a little bit about all of the measures Germany is taking, very drastic measures, to get out of the dependency.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Ambassador.

Ms. McPherson, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do want to thank all of the ambassadors for being with us here today. I know this is very challenging. I want to say that I think the one thing we all agree on is the importance of supporting Ukraine. I know that we all want to see this horrific invasion, this horrific war, end. We all want to see a strong sovereign Ukraine.

Forgive me if my questions come across as harsh, but of course, as a member of the opposition, my role is to question some of the decisions the government has made and to make sure they are the right decisions. With that in mind, I think we all can celebrate the fact that there is a desire for Ukraine to triumph in this war. While there are discrepancies on what we think should happen next, this desire for Ukraine to triumph, I think, is very strong. I think it's important that the Russian Federation knows that and knows how together we are on that goal.

I am going to start with a few questions, if I could, to the German ambassador, Ambassador Sparwasser.

Obviously, the turbine was returned. Right now we have hindsight. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but now we know that the Russian Federation, that Putin, has no intention of fulfilling promises. In fact, how has the decision to send the turbine back helped the German people? How has that not just undermined Canada's sanctions regime and our collective sanctions regime, and not helped Germany in any way?

[Sabine Sparwasser]

Thank you for that question.

I mentioned the disinformation war. We are all, in our societies, subject to Russian disinformation—in Canada as much as in Germany. To have had the pretext of Russia being able to say that the fact we didn't return the turbine was the reason that no more gas was flowing would have been a pretty difficult argument in the disinformation war. The way we have it now, the turbine is there. They can have it. It's not the turbine that's the issue on the energy supply. It makes it absolutely crystal clear to anybody that Russia has been lying about it and that this was not a necessary thing.

In that sense we called its bluff. I think that is a good thing and a good outcome of this very, very difficult procedure. I do want to—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Ambassador. I'm sorry to interrupt, but knowing, then, that this is the reality we're in, that we've now, in your words, called Putin's bluff and are in a situation where we know that it was never his intention to provide the gas that Germany requires, do you think we should be revoking this waiver?

Clearly, sending another five is just bad pennies after good. Why would we do this now? Why would we not revoke the waiver, as Ukraine is asking us to do? What is the value of that now? We've proven that Putin has no intention to live up to his obligations, and there is no benefit to the German people. I don't understand why we wouldn't revoke that waiver at this point.

[Sabine Sparwasser]

Well, I think that's something to decide. Obviously, with the turbine not being picked up, that question absolutely arises. I think we will discuss that in the near future. Right now I can't give an answer to that. Right now there is one turbine. Russia doesn't seem to want to pick it up, and has declared it won't pick it up. There are the next steps to consider.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

Ambassador Gabrič, you spoke of the support of the European Union in this situation. Does that include all members of the European Union? Can you clarify whether there was support for this decision from countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia?

[Melita Gabrič]

Thank you for this question. I would like to clarify that the European Union passed seven packages of sanctions against Russia. All sanctions are accepted in unanimity, meaning that all 27 member states have to agree, and all 27 member states agreed to all seven packages of sanctions.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Was there unanimous support for Canada to waive this particular sanction? Was there support from other countries to support Canada's decision to waive the sanction on the gas turbines?

[Melita Gabrič]

The executive branch of the European Union, the European Commission, welcomed the decision by Canada to repatriate the turbines, as I explained earlier, both in terms of taking away the pretext as well as potentially helping to fill up gas storage for the winter.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

So it was the executive branch but perhaps not all of the members of the European Union. Is that accurate?

[Melita Gabrič]

This welcome was actually issued by the executive branch, the European Commission.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

I'm going to go back and ask one more question, if I could, of Ambassador Sparwasser.

In July, Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland said that she understood Ukraine's response, but she defended the government's move. She said “Canada heard very clearly from our German allies that Germany's ability to sustain its support for Ukraine could be at risk”. She mentioned that the United States backed this, a position that Freeland described as very significant.

I'm wondering if you could share with us what support the German government was worried they would have to withhold if Canada did not return those turbines to Germany.

[Sabine Sparwasser]

There was not a discussion of withholding any kind of support to Ukraine. We stand solidly behind Ukraine. We have been amongst the strongest donors of every type of aid for Ukraine. What the remark is referring to is indeed what I've been saying. We're in it for the long haul. We need to be able to sustain it as an economy, as an economy that's a very important part of the European Union and the motor in it.

We need to sustain it also in the face of a lot of disinformation. We need to have the full support of our population. We have it now, but we need to also keep it up, because we need to keep up that support for the long haul. We need to help support Ukraine looking towards reconstruction as well. Again, we need a solid German and European economy.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Ambassador.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much for that.