Foreign Affairs Committee on Aug. 4th, 2022

[Sabine Sparwasser]

No. It was always about insisting that the turbine was absolutely technically necessary. That was always the question we had, and we had it from the very beginning. We were very transparent about it.

I can't find it in a hurry right now. I could read you the interviews that Minister Habeck gave. It was very clear that this was the case.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Stéphane Bergeron]

Mr. Morantz, I'll have to stop you there and return the chair to you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you very much. I accept the chair, Mr. Bergeron—

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I believe I'm the next Liberal speaker, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

The clerk has texted me to say that it's Mr. Sarai, but if it's okay with him, Ms. Bendayan, you have the floor.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our three ambassadors appearing before the committee today.

Your Excellency, Ambassador Sparwasser, I'll begin by asking you.... In light of comments I referenced earlier in a previous meeting today of your foreign minister, as well as several comments you made in your introduction a few moments ago.... You mentioned that the reduction of the flow of gas through Nord Stream 1 would have been entirely blamed on the sanctions. You also stated later in your introduction that there would have been heavy repercussions on your ability to continue your support of Ukraine.

I would like to hear you on the consequences if Canada had refused to grant Germany's request. How do you feel that would have affected the support of the alliance, Germany and other European partners for these sanctions, given the impact on your population?

[Sabine Sparwasser]

I believe I mentioned beforehand that this is a hybrid kind of war, and it's a disinformation war. To have given the argument to the Russians that we brought the lack of gas upon ourselves would have been a strong argument in the disinformation war that—

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

What would have been the consequence of that disinformation to your people?

[Sabine Sparwasser]

It could have eroded our support in the long term. As I say, right now support is strong, but we want to keep it that way.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

The previous Conservative member asked quite a few questions about the importance—or not—of calling Mr. Putin's bluff and questioned the public communication around calling President Putin's bluff. As a poker player, I feel quite strongly that you don't announce that you're calling somebody's bluff when you're doing it.

I have a follow-up question to that line of thought. Now that we have called Russia's bluff, is it Germany's view that Canada could revoke the permit following the request of the Ukrainian ambassador today?

[Sabine Sparwasser]

I think we have to see what happens now with the turbine that's there. I would hesitate any to make kind of guess of what's going to follow. If Russia doesn't pick up the turbine that's sitting there ready and in perfect condition, it creates a different kind of situation.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

And so if the turbine never does make it to Russia and continues to stay in Germany, would it be Germany's position that we could revoke the permit?

[Sabine Sparwasser]

I don't think we have a position. I think we now have a decision by the Canadian government to support us in this and we will see what happens. We have to see what happens.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Ambassador.

Ambassador Kovaliv, I also wanted to thank you for your testimony today and for reiterating your gratitude for Canada's support.

At our last meeting you insisted on the importance of Canada's unprecedented financial and military support, and of course indicated that the history books would remember that Canada stood shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine. That obviously continues to be a priority of our government and I hope that it continues to be the way that your government and Ukraine view our steadfast support for Ukraine. I hope it is your view that this decision was taken in the context I just mentioned, the importance of ensuring that these sanctions remain in place and the continued unity of the alliance.

[Yuliia Kovaliv]

First of all, I would like also to thank you, as I've already mentioned, for the steadfast support of the Canadian government, the German government, the EU government and of many allies. We see in the Ramstein format, which has already met several times, that the number of countries sitting at the table and coordinating the support of Ukraine, first of all the military support for Ukraine, is increasing each day, because each day the world understands that the war in Ukraine is not only Russian barbarism on one country. The consequences of this war go far beyond Ukraine and even the EU's borders. The dimension of Russian aggression has us today discussing energy security, food security, and nuclear security on the European continent. There are many ways this war has challenged global peace and global order, and it's very clear from where we are on the opposite side.

If we look at what Russia is doing on energy, and terrorizing Europe, we on the contrary are trying our best to as much as possible deliver food and Ukrainian grain to the global markets. Under the threats, unfortunately, many Ukrainian farmers are dying in the fields because of the mines and shelling, but despite that we are planting. We are collecting the harvest with the great support of the Canadian government, which is helping Ukraine to buy grain storage, which is so needed, to allow the world to get Ukrainian grain. The first ship already went through, even after Russia missiles attacked the port. The next 16 are already waiting to come for grain. This is while Russia is doing the opposite, and the turbine is an exact, very blunt showcase of how they are threatening the continent.

I think we need to be clear on punishing Russia for that. And, yes, the consequences of sanctions will need to hurt everybody in the short term, but we need to consider what will happen if our policy of appeasing Putin will enable him to move further, and we need to understand what consequences of that will be.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Ambassador. I'm sorry to interrupt.

[Yuliia Kovaliv]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Mr. Clerk, I realize we're at the hour.

I was wondering if there is committee support for another round of 15 minutes.

[The Clerk]

Sure.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Is everyone agreeable to that, ambassadors and members of Parliament? If that's the case, there are four rounds, correct? So maybe we'll do five, five, two and a half, two and a half.

Mr. Genuis is up next.

You have the floor for five minutes. Please proceed.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's clear to me, as we get to the end of the day of hearings, that there's a consensus that the delivery of the turbine has not and will not achieve anything practical in terms of access to gas. This was supposed to be, rather, about exposing the Russians and removing an excuse. One turbine has now been sent; the Russians have not restored the flow.

I do not believe that sending that turbine was the right decision, but if it had any purpose at all, the turbine has been sent, and it has exposed the point. At the very least, I think we should be able to agree that no more turbines should be sent. We on this side are strongly in support of the call from the Ukrainian ambassador to, at this point, revoke the permit. It should be obvious that, if the government's rationale holds, the objective they said they were trying to achieve has been achieved, and now no more turbines should be sent. I hope that, at some point, we're able to get support from the committee for that recommendation.

I want to conclude the time and use this round of questions to speak to the Ukrainian ambassador.

Thank you for your testimony today. All of us have been heartbroken to see the atrocities being committed against the Ukrainian people, and we've also inspired by the heroic courage of Ukrainians.

I want to mention and pay tribute to Émile-Antoine Roy-Sirois, a Canadian citizen who volunteered to go to fight alongside Ukrainians and who was killed in action. Of course, he joins many Ukrainian nationals and heroes who have died in this war, but I wanted to mention him as a Canadian citizen who volunteered to join that effort.

Ambassador, there's been a lot of discussion about the alliance and about the need to have unity within the alliance. What bothers me about that discourse, of course, is that the most important thing for the alliance's unity is being united behind Ukraine, and there's an emphasis that seems to be put on Canada and Germany's being united in their position, but that position is at odds with the most important ally in this equation, which is Ukraine.

I suspect as well that there are many other nations in central and eastern Europe that have the same concerns about this policy of turbine export as I do.

Ambassador, I wonder if you could speak to discussions you've had with other members of the broader alliance of democratic nations on how they perceive the energy security questions, what the position of other EU members, for example, other than Germany, might be with respect to turbine export, and how the alliance is divided in light of the fact that Ukraine has not been listened to in the case of the turbine issue.

[Yuliia Kovaliv]

Thank you.

It's due really....The issue of energy security in Europe is one that is not easy and is rather complicated, because of the big elephant in the room, which is Russia's Gazprom. Unfortunately, this elephant has been growing for decades. It has been hurting, buying and bargaining with a lot of countries in different ways..

Since the war started, we have seen several attempts by Russia to blackmail Europe. The first was the Russian decision to force countries to pay for Russian gas in rubles. We saw many countries, including many European countries, opposed to paying in rubles. This was the first move. Russia cut the gas to these countries, but they had already found a way to find alternatives. There was another big push. Unfortunately, the countries that accepted paying in rubles and followed Russia's blackmailing ended up in a situation where they now have almost zero gas flow.

These are the two lessons that are important for everybody to learn now. The first is that no appeasement of Putin's energy blackmailing can be successful. The second important thing is that Russia has already sanctioned, for example, a big Polish route that could be an alternative to Nord Stream 1.

Pipelines are the best examples of Putin's policy of using Russia to influence European policy. We had a story with another pipeline, the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. We, as Ukraine, and many eastern European countries have for years been advocating that this is a purely political project that has no grounds. A year ago, the sanctions on Nord Stream 2 were waived, but the sanctions were put back in February of this year.

We value and understand that after many lessons, we are all now on the same page that Nord Stream 2 was a political project, and now it is blocked. However, Russia is still raising this new question, so this is important. Once again, it is important that we not allow ourselves to make the same mistakes and appease Putin.

Many countries in Europe, especially those 12 that already faced the full cap cut of Russian gas, are finding alternatives. Everybody in Europe is finding alternatives. Since 2014, we, as Ukraine, have found ways to buy gas from other sources.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

I'm sorry, Ambassador. I have to move on to the next MP.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Ambassador.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

I apologize.

Mr. Sidhu, you have the floor for five minutes.