Evidence of meeting #25 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was energy.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you very much for that.
Now we will start off our rounds of questioning. The first round will consist of six minutes of questions.
Mr. Genuis, the floor is yours.
1:25 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It is great to see the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, UCC, back after so long. I have a couple of questions about other matters related to Ukraine before we get to turbines.
To your knowledge, is there a fully operational Canadian embassy in Kyiv right now?
1:25 p.m.
Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
I can answer what we know publicly.
We know that the Prime Minister, Minister Joly and Minister Freeland were in Kyiv on May 8 for a ceremony to open the embassy. We know that Ambassador Galadza is in Kyiv and working. The media coverage that we've seen notes that services at the embassy are still suspended due to the security situation, and that people have been directed to other locations across Ukraine or Europe for visa assistance. That's what we're aware of.
1:25 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you very much. That's important information.
Canada has been behind our allies in imposing consequences on Russian diplomats. Are you satisfied with the approach that the Government of Canada has taken on this, and why has the government, in your view, not been more aggressive on this front?
1:25 p.m.
Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
I'll let my colleague respond to that one.
1:25 p.m.
Senior Policy Advisor, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
I'm not sure why the government hasn't responded to those calls. We've seen several countries in Europe expel numerous Russian diplomats. We've not seen Canada expel any Russian diplomats since February.
Added to that, there was a fairly disturbing incident about a month ago, which was reported publicly. In Ottawa, at the embassy, people got out of what appeared to be a Russian diplomatic car and vandalized a blue and yellow painted bike that was placed outside the embassy, on public property. The bike was spray-painted and destroyed by what appeared to be people who emerged from a car that was later seen on the property of the Russian embassy.
There has not been any response to this that I have knowledge of. It is our position that the Russian embassy is a security threat to Canadians and that our government should be forceful in responding to that threat.
1:25 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you.
Is it fair to say you're disappointed with the lack of response from the government so far?
1:25 p.m.
Senior Policy Advisor, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
That's fair to say, yes.
1:25 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
With respect to the turbine issue, we've seen three different explanations from government officials on this. First they said it was about German energy security. That turned out not to be true. Then they said it was about calling Putin's bluff. That, of course, doesn't make any sense in light of new events, as the government continues to plan to export turbines in spite of the fact that gas has been cut off anyway.
We saw a third explanation from the Minister of Foreign Affairs in court filings in response to the Ukrainian World Congress. In that explanation, the government was essentially showing that this decision was about trying to protect jobs in Montreal, speaking about jobs at a Siemens facility that is in fact relatively close to Minister Joly's own riding. This raises questions about whether the government was trying to take into consideration constituency politics in granting a sanctions waiver.
What was your reaction to the information in those filings, that the minister was taking into consideration jobs close to home in the decision to grant this waiver?
1:25 p.m.
Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
The UCC isn't part of the court filings process, so this is new information for me.
As you mentioned, we've certainly seen a number of attempts to explain this, which we think is a poor decision. We keep offering our views on the opportunity to correct the situation. During the German chancellor's visit, we thought there was an ideal opportunity for both countries, with Ukrainian support, to make amends and bring some clarity to the situation.
The documents you've reported on have not been reported publicly. I've never heard any situation of Siemens responding that it would be going out of business if it didn't have this particular contract. It is a large multinational company with many processes under way, I'm sure. I'll let the documents speak for themselves, obviously, in court, in terms of how the government is responding.
1:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay. Thank you very much for that.
Related to questions of Siemens' relationship to the government and these considerations, we did a search of the lobby registry and found that on April 13 of this year, representatives from Siemens met with David Morrison, the deputy minister for international trade in Global Affairs Canada, and John Hannaford, another deputy minister.
Do you have any indication as to what Siemens was discussing when it was lobbying the government back in April, and how lobbying by Siemens might have played a role in this decision that is very much contrary to Ukraine's interest but might be in Siemens' own commercial interest?
1:30 p.m.
Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
Obviously I haven't seen those documents. Siemens has not met with us. Siemens has a lot of interests in Russia and other places, and I'm sure it's trying to understand the government's approach on those interests.
1:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Perhaps I'll make a comment for the benefit of this committee, that it would be useful to hear from Siemens at some point, if the chair is able to find time to schedule them.
Thank you.
1:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you for that.
Next we'll go to Mr. Zuberi. Mr. Zuberi, you have six minutes.
1:30 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses from the Ukrainian Canadian Congress for being here and for all of your advocacy.
As we all know, we in Canada are steadfast with the Ukrainian people.
In your opening remarks, you mentioned a number of points. One was that you are advocating that Russia be added to a list of state sponsors of terrorism. In 2017, Mr. Zakydalsky, you also testified to the same point, saying that the Russian Federation should be added as a state sponsor of terrorism. In the end, President Biden recently decided not to designate Russia in this way.
What do you make of Biden's decision not to do that?
1:30 p.m.
Senior Policy Advisor, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
That is a decision that we hope the President will review and take another look at.
In the U.S. Congress there is wide support for this designation. A Senate resolution passed unanimously. We all know our friends down south; the U.S. Senate doesn't pass anything unanimously, but this passed unanimously. This was a resolution introduced by Senator Graham and Senator Blumenthal, calling on the administration to in fact designate Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism.
We also know that the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Ms. Pelosi, is a strong supporter of this position. She is, of course, from the President's party. We hope that both the Senate and the House will encourage the President to revisit that decision. We certainly look to you to encourage American legislators in your interactions with the U.S. administration, and to encourage us together to list Russia. In the U.S. it's called a “state sponsor”; here it's called a “state supporter” of terrorism, but the designation means the same thing.
Certainly this designation is long overdue. The shooting down of flight MH17 was in July of 2014, and certainly a country that shoots down civilian airliners is engaging in terrorism.
1:30 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
I want to switch gears for a moment and talk about the German ambassador's testimony recently, in August, around the disinformation war that is being waged by Russia. I think we can all agree that this is what Russia does.
With respect to the turbines, we know that Russia has put forth that it's because of sanctions that gas and oil cannot be delivered to Germany. We proved in the end that this is not the case. Russia said that the turbine was needed so that energy could flow to Germany, yet it was not the case that this turbine in question was absolutely essential for that. Russia is now actually refusing to utilize this turbine.
Do you think that the disinformation war would have been amped up by Russia if Germany did not have this turbine in hand?
1:35 p.m.
Senior Policy Advisor, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
I don't know what Russia would have done if we hadn't waived the sanctions. I presume that had we not waived the sanctions on Russia, Russia still would not be delivering gas to Germany, so we're at the same place we were, except that we've waived sanctions on Russia. We've gained nothing, but lost sanctions that we had on Russia.
I think that's the problem. By undertaking this capitulation, we have done nothing except placate Russia. Obviously, as we can see, the return is further Russian obstinance and further Russian pressure, which is what we said would happen when the government took this decision and why we tried to convince the government not to take it.
1:35 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Would you agree that we've taken arguments away from Russia in terms of the disinformation war?
1:35 p.m.
Senior Policy Advisor, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
They can make up whatever they want. If the point is to take away arguments from the Russian disinformation war, then I don't want to know where that ends, because they're just going to make more stuff up.
1:35 p.m.
Senior Policy Advisor, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
I honestly don't really understand the reasoning.
1:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you, Mr. Zuberi.
We now go to Mr. Bergeron.
Mr. Bergeron, you have six minutes.