Evidence of meeting #28 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was position.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andrew Turner  Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Alison Grant  Executive Director, Security and Defence Relations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Ariane Gagné-Frégeau

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome, colleagues, to meeting number 28 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today's meeting is being held in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order adopted on Thursday, June 23. Members will be present in the room or on the Zoom app. The proceedings will be published on the House of Commons website. For your information, the camera will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee.

As always, interpretation is available by clicking on the globe icon at the bottom of your screen. Moreover, when speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, allow me to remind you to put your mike on mute.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind all participants that taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, September 21, the committee commences its study of the security at the borders between Azerbaijan and Armenia, an issue that I know is of interest to all members here.

Mr. Bergeron.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

As the witnesses will soon be online, I just want to make sure that the sound tests have been done and that they were successful.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Yes, they have done a sound check, so we're all good to go, and everyone seems to be ready.

Again, we're delving into a study that is of interest to all the members, and indeed, I would say, to many Canadians around the country.

It is my pleasure, of course, to welcome officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development.

We have with us here today two witnesses: Mr. Andrew Turner, who is the director of the eastern Europe and Eurasia division, and Ms. Alison Grant, executive director, security and defence relations.

Before we ask the witnesses to provide us with their testimonies, as a preliminary matter, given all the discussions we had Monday, it was my understanding that there is a consensus that the schedule be changed somewhat. You will all have received the new schedule that was put together by the clerk and the analysts. Is there consensus that, insofar as the month of October is concerned—

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

On a point of order, when did we get a new schedule?

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Oh, my impression was....

My apologies. That was my bad.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Mr. Chair, maybe I could clarify.

I think there is a consensus among all members of the four recognized parties here on this committee to agree to the calendar as presented until the end of October, as you gave it to us at the last meeting, and we would then have a subsequent discussion about what would happen after the end of October. I believe there is a consensus on the committee to do that. We thought if there was, then we might as well seize it so we could plan out the schedule until the end of October. I believe that is the consensus of all the members of the committee.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you very much for that.

I take it, then, that there is full consensus that insofar as October is concerned, we go with the schedule as agreed to by the members.

Welcome, Mr. Turner and Ms. Grant. You each have five minutes for your testimony, after which we will invite the members to ask you questions.

Mr. Turner, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

5:10 p.m.

Andrew Turner Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As my public service career began with my being a parliamentary page—in my case, in the Senate—I always like to begin by commending Parliament for the opportunities that program offers to Canadian students.

Mr. Chair, on September 13, renewed clashes broke out between the armed forces of Armenia and Azerbaijan. Each side blamed the other for the hostilities, and immediate high-level international engagement contributed to a ceasefire that came into effect on the evening of September 14. Since then, the situation has remained tense but stable.

Over 200 people, mainly soldiers, from both sides were reportedly killed in the clashes,135 Armenian personnel and 77 from Azerbaijan. Both sides also reported civilian casualties and several injuries. The recent hostilities were unprecedented in terms of intensity and represented the most serious escalation since the end of the second Nagorno-Karabakh war in 2020.

Border clashes have occurred periodically since the November 2020 ceasefire. However, the recent escalation was different, as there were credible reports of Azerbaijani strikes inside Armenia, well beyond the border.

Azerbaijan justified its shelling as a response to Armenian provocations, including the alleged laying of Armenian-produced land mines in Azerbaijani territory. There has been speculation that Azerbaijan was taking advantage of a distracted Russia and west to push Armenia towards a political settlement on their terms.

As seen with previous border clashes, mutual accusations obscure our visibility. It is difficult to discern clear facts, as there is no international presence in the border areas.

Armenia has publicly voiced concerns that Azerbaijan appeared to be planning another operation and has called for the continued engagement of the international community, including from Canada.

Immediate and high-level reaction of the international community was critical in calming the situation. These efforts included calls for immediate de-escalation and the need to frame a path forward between the two parties.

The leadership of the United States and France undertook direct active engagement with the parties. European Council President Charles Michel and EU High Representative Josep Borrell conducted calls with the leaders of the region, and EU Special Representative for the South Caucasus Toivo Klaar travelled to the capitals of both countries.

At Armenia’s request, the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) undertook an assessment mission to Armenia, which started last week. In multilateral forums, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the OSCE, held a special meeting of the Permanent Council on September 13. The UN Security Council held two meetings on the situation on September 14 and September 15.

The OSCE has for years tried to manage this conflict, but the work of the Minsk Group, co-chaired by France, the United States and Russia, has increasingly been sidelined.

The EU has been playing an increasingly active role that has gained some traction. Under EU mediation, the two Armenian and Azerbaijani leaders agreed to start drafting the bilateral peace agreement and set up a joint commission on demarcating their common border. These efforts have been continuing, with further meetings planned for this fall. It remains to be seen how recent events will impact this process.

Canada immediately reacted to the escalation in hostilities by expressing its deep concerns and by calling for calm through social media, on September 13, urging de-escalation, respect for the ceasefire, and a return to dialogue. Minister Joly spoke to her counterparts from both countries. She held a call with Armenian Minister Ararat Mirzoyan on September 15, and a call with Azerbaijani Minister Jeyhun Bayramov on September 17.

In her conversations, Minister Joly expressed condolences for the loss of life, welcomed the ceasefire, urged further de-escalation and continued respect for the ceasefire, and stressed the importance of meaningful dialogue.

She underlined that the reports of Azerbaijani strikes in Armenian territory were especially worrying—in particular, damage to infrastructure and civilian casualties—reiterating the importance of territorial integrity and the unacceptable use of force. She stressed that there is no military solution to this conflict.

Canada remains ready to support measures to stabilize the situation and to encourage negotiations for a comprehensive peace treaty. We welcome the ongoing engagement of the OSCE, the EU's important work to further dialogue and bilateral engagement by our partners such as the U.S.

We continue to monitor the situation and to engage directly with the parties, encouraging them to continue working together, with international support, to build mutual confidence at this sensitive time.

Canada enjoys positive bilateral relations with both countries. Thousands of Canadians trace their heritage to Azerbaijan and Armenia and serve as important links between our societies.

Canada-Azerbaijan relations are reinforced by our mutual commitment to shared global priorities, including environmental stewardship, and Canada appreciates Azerbaijan's co-operation in Afghanistan and its delivery of humanitarian assistance to Ukraine.

Canada supports Armenia's social and democratic reforms through initiatives such as the mission of Special Envoy Stéphane Dion and the Arnold Chan initiative for democracy and supports the Armenian parliament. We look forward to opening an embassy in Yerevan.

For these reasons, Canada encourages both Armenia and Azerbaijan to engage in meaningful dialogue towards a comprehensive and sustainable peace, which will provide a better future for all citizens.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you, Mr. Turner.

I understand that Ms. Grant would not like to make remarks but has kindly made herself available to answer any questions the members may have.

We'll go directly to questions. The first round is for six minutes, and we commence with Mr. Chong.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm wondering if the Canadian government has made an explicit call to Azerbaijan to immediately cease hostilities at the border and beyond as a result of their recent provocations.

5:20 p.m.

Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Andrew Turner

Minister Joly has called for the immediate end of all hostilities in full respect of the ceasefire.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

In other words, the government hasn't explicitly called out Azerbaijan in that regard. It seems to me to be somewhat offside with some of our closest allies. I note that Secretary of State Antony Blinken called upon the Azerbaijani president to immediately cease hostilities against Armenia. France likewise called on Azerbaijan to immediately cease hostilities and also called for an emergency session of the UN Security Council, which subsequently took place on September 15. I'm wondering why the Canadian government is not explicitly calling out Azerbaijan because of this recent increase in conflict at and beyond the border.

5:20 p.m.

Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Andrew Turner

Minister Joly has explicitly called out the Azerbaijani shelling of Armenian territory and explicitly raised this concern with her Azerbaijani counterpart.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you for that.

Has the Government of Canada changed its travel advisory to Armenia as a result of these recent hostilities?

5:20 p.m.

Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Andrew Turner

We have taken note of the recent hostilities, but our long-standing travel advice is that Canadians should avoid travel to the border regions and Nagorno-Karabakh.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you for that.

Did any of the weaponry used in these strikes involve drones?

5:20 p.m.

Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Andrew Turner

I'll defer to Alison on that question.

5:20 p.m.

Alison Grant Executive Director, Security and Defence Relations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

It's very hard for us to verify in the border areas exactly what military equipment was used. I note that Armenia has accused Azerbaijan of using combat drones, artillery and large-calibre firearms. That's from Armenia. I've seen open-source reporting along those lines as well.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Has the government had any change in position on the export permits that were granted to WESCAM with respect to the export of Canadian camera technology for the Baykar drones to Turkey?

5:20 p.m.

Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Andrew Turner

No. The policy that was put in place has not changed. Any group 2 military export permits requested by Turkey would not be issued.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Can you tell us a little bit more about when the government's embassy in Armenia will be open?

5:20 p.m.

Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Andrew Turner

We are currently going through the processes to implement the decision to open the embassy. Minister Joly has made it crystal clear that the embassy is to be open as soon as possible.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Okay.

I know that in recent years Canadian delegations have gone to Armenia. Recently the U.S. sent a congressional delegation to Armenia, led by Speaker Nancy Pelosi. I'm wondering if the Canadian government has any plans to send a delegation to Armenia.

5:20 p.m.

Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Andrew Turner

We have regular visits from our embassy in Moscow, which is accredited to Armenia. At the moment, I'm not aware of any other plans that are scheduled, but certainly as COVID lifts, it becomes easier to travel. We just hosted a visit of the Armenian deputy foreign minister to initiate bilateral consultations. Given that we hosted the first round, the expectation would be that we would travel to Yerevan for the next round.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

There's a last question I have.

I know that Ursula von der Leyen recently visited Baku and Azerbaijan this past summer. She visited with the specific intention of talking about energy security, seeing that Azerbaijan is a significant oil and gas producer in eastern Europe and in the Caucasus.

I know that the current government, the Trudeau government, struck a working group with the European Commission, with Ursula von der Leyen—I believe in March of this year—between Canada and the European Commission, or European Union, and that was to focus exclusively on how Europe and Canada could work more closely together on natural gas exports.

Can you tell us if there have been any discussions that have taken place about the interplay between energy coming from Azerbaijan for Europe, as opposed to Canada, and how that working group relates to the work that you are doing in Global Affairs on the Armenia-Azerbaijan file?