Foreign Affairs Committee on Sept. 28th, 2022

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I am.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Thanks to all of you for being here and for answering our questions this evening.

One of the things I'm very interested in—and I think we are all considering what's happening in Iran at the moment and what we're seeing happening in Afghanistan and around the world—is the protection of women's rights.

Canada, of course, has a feminist international assistance policy. We are supposed to have a feminist foreign policy; we don't have that in place yet.

Can you tell me what Global Affairs Canada is doing and what we are doing as a government to ensure that the premise of the feminist foreign policy is being put in place as we deal with this conflict?

[Andrew Turner]

Certainly. I can speak a bit to what we are doing in our bilateral relations with both countries and then turn to Alison for anything more, specifically through the OSCE or other angles.

With regard to Azerbaijan, we regularly engage with the government on the importance of gender equality, on promoting women's economic empowerment and, on a small scale, providing some support to civil society organizations through Canada-funded projects. For Armenia, we have the Arnold Chan initiative for democracy—which particularly, and all of the projects involved in it, is focused on women, be it either economic empowerment or political engagement. We also have broad support for the parliamentary administration and ensuring that gender equality is factored in there.

It also is a regular aspect of all of our discussions, including in the most recent bilateral consultations. I will stop there and turn to Alison for anything to add from her side.

[Alison Grant]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's simply to say, of course, that we're co-members with Armenia in the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, where one of the pillars is human rights and the human dimension. We do engage quite extensively with Armenia in the OSCE on issues of human rights, gender equality and women's empowerment.

In fact, even right now the OSCE's human dimension conference is about to take place in Warsaw, where we will be engaging on these themes, and not just with Armenia, of course, but with other regional countries. We have a good partnership with Armenia in this area through the OSCE.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

I believe that's my time, is it not?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you. That's correct.

Now we go to Mr. Aboultaif. You have five minutes, sir.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I think we're sitting in a very complicated situation. I don't know if we've ever seen in recent history one as complicated as this. For example, we have our European allies. On one side, they want the energy from Azerbaijan. On the other side, they want to protect democracy for Armenia. We see Turkey on one side. We have that security situation in Afghanistan in the whole region. We also have Iran on one side.

With this complicated situation, can you please define Canada's position in this whole conflict, other than we're calling for peace and for all sides to bring peace and to settle? I think Canada has to have a position, because our allies out there, such as the United States, have a much stronger position on this conflict, and we don't seem to be anywhere there, other than calling on everybody to maintain peace.

[Andrew Turner]

Well, Canada has had a long-standing position on the conflict, which is to support the UN Security Council decisions, which include mandating the OSCE to try to come up with a basis for a permanent peace agreement. In that regard, the foundation of our policy has been to support the work of the OSCE Minsk Group and its efforts, on the basis of the principles of territorial integrity, self-determination and non-use of force.

This continues to be our position. Again, it does not prejudge any of the final outcomes that are to be resolved by negotiations between the two sides. Likewise, if an avenue outside of the OSCE—the current discussions with the EU, for example—proves to be a more effective and acceptable channel to Armenia and Azerbaijan, then we certainly would support them as well. We have consistently focused on the OSCE because it has been the organization that had the mandate from the UN Security Council to lead the efforts to reach peace in this regard.

I will check quickly with Alison to see if she would have anything to add on that.

[Alison Grant]

The only thing I would add, Mr. Chair, is that what we have advocated in talking about a comprehensive and sustainable peace is a peace that really addresses the issues at the heart of the conflict. This is where you have the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, both wanting a peace agreement, but on different terms. The status and the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh is at the heart of that too. We believe that should be part of the discussions and the negotiations.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

I have two follow-up questions on the first comment.

Does that mean that Canada is sitting and waiting to see which one will prevail before we join the efforts or the direction of one side versus the other?

Second, do we support the European initiatives to maintain the security of energy supplies with the negotiations that they're trying to have with Azerbaijan?

[Andrew Turner]

With regard to the first question, Canada has made it clear that we support all of the efforts to achieve peace, whether they're being led by the UN or the OSCE, so we're not giving preference to one option versus the other. We are happy to support whatever option has the most traction. In some cases, some discussions will be more effective than others in advancing certain issues in certain areas. From our perspective, the issue is not what channel is used as much as what leads to the best outcome.

With regard to Europe and energy security, we're not privy to specific details of what is being discussed, but we are, broadly speaking, in favour of increasing European energy security and reducing dependence on Russia.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Okay.

Is there anything you would like to add, Ms. Grant? No.

I have 20 seconds.

If we can name this, there is no position, really. We're sitting on the sidelines, figuring out what the efforts are going to lead to, and then we can follow suit. Is that correct?

[Andrew Turner]

Canada is playing a supporting position in encouraging peace, but we are not the lead. As I said, it has been traditionally been the OSCE Minsk Group and specifically the co-chairs of France, the U.S. and Russia.

I don't agree that we have no position. Our position is very clear: We are supporting the international efforts to achieve peace in the region.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We go next to Ms. Bendayan. You have five minutes.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to allow myself two comments before I ask my question.

First, I would like to add my voice to that of Mr. Bergeron. I think I also speak for the members of this committee when I say that we would love to have the experts from Global Affairs Canada come and testify in person if at all possible.

Secondly, as we have a very busy schedule, if the clerk could send us any updates on the situation over the next few weeks and months, we would appreciate it.

Mr. Turner, I would like to take a step back and ask you to please give us your opinion of how this conflict fits into a larger geopolitical context. In particular, how would you say that this impacts the importance or the strength of Russia's CSTO, the Collective Security Treaty Organization, which styles itself as a bit as a counter to NATO?

Armenia is part of that group and specifically called for military assistance from the CSTO, but was rebuffed. Could you comment on what impact that might have?

[Andrew Turner]

I think the ongoing conflict and broader regional tensions—not just between Armenia and Azerbaijan, but throughout the region—are a source of concern for Canada, because we see that they benefit Russia, principally. The tensions between Armenia and Azerbaijan and the existence of conflict at various moments in time are some of the reasons that Armenia has continued to be part of the CSTO and has relied on Russia for security guarantees.

As you say, yes, the recent response is perhaps indicative of the risks of countries doing so, but Armenia feels that it needs to because of this conflict. As a small country facing larger neighbours, it feels at risk and needs international support. It has pursued that not just in the context of the CSTO, but also in its outreach and engagement with many other countries, including the EU, the U.S. and Canada. We are very happy to provide that support through diplomatic channels. Again, that is one of the reasons we are very pleased to be moving forward with opening the embassy.

Efforts to resolve the Nagorno-Karabakh dispute and to facilitate greater normalization between Armenia and Azerbaijan and between Armenia and Turkey we see as a very positive step. We are doing everything we can to encourage them, because we see it as a step to reducing the risk of Russia's being able to exploit the situation for its own benefit.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Russia is effectively losing allies and losing support for the CSTO, if I understand your response correctly.

[Andrew Turner]

I don't think that the limited response that the CSTO has provided to Armenia's request for assistance is one that would have inspired confidence from any of the other members of the organization that might be relying on it for help in the future.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Turner.

Mr. Chair, I would like to move a motion that I circulated last week and that has duly been put on notice:

That the committee strongly condemns the killing of Mahsa Amini at the hands of the so-called Iranian “morality police”, a direct consequence of the systemic and sustained harassment and repression of women by the Iranian government; that this committee reiterates its support for women's rights as human rights; that this committee salutes the courage of the Iranian women and men protesting in over 100 cities across the country and stands in solidarity with all those demonstrating against the Iranian regime's appalling practices; that this committee calls on the Iranian authorities to immediately cease its use of deadly force against peaceful protesters and refrain from committing further acts of violence against its own population; that this committee reiterates its support of Canada's sanctions regime against Iran; and that this committee report this motion to the House.

Mr. Chair, I certainly understand the importance of the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan. It was my motion to study this topic today. However, given the developments in Iran, I believe this is of the utmost importance. I hope that we can deal with this matter swiftly and report back to the House, pursuant to the terms of the motion.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I very much agree about the importance of the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan. I also agree, certainly, about the importance of the situation in Iran. Given time and before I go any further with my comments, I wonder if there might be unanimous consent to thank the witnesses and let them take their leave. I'll then continue with some other remarks.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Chair, I hoped that we could deal with this and come back to the witnesses.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. I don't know if we will, because I have a couple of amendments to move. If that's the preference, then that's fine. I'll just continue.

Mr. Chair, let me say that Conservatives are very supportive of strong action to hold the Iranian regime accountable. In fact, we have been calling for precisely this action for a very, very long time. I welcome some of the comments that have been made on this by our colleagues across the way. We want to see concrete action from the government following up with those comments. I don't doubt the sincerity of some individual members on the government side, but I think from the government in general, it's not enough to express solidarity and then fail to take the actions that are concretely within the government's power and authority to do.

Mr. Chair, you have two amendments from me to this motion. I want to start by moving what was amendment number two in a list that I sent you. This is a smaller amendment, which would add the following words:

and calls on the government of Canada to immediately list the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) as a terrorist entity under Canada’s Criminal Code;

That would come towards the end of the motion, right before “and that this committee report this motion to the House”.

I'll make a couple of comments about this. The House voted in the majority more than four years ago to immediately list the IRGC as a terrorist entity. That was before the downing of flight 752. That was before the murder of Ms. Amini, yet that was also still, even four years ago, after so many horrific crimes had been committed by the regime. A majority of the House, including the Prime Minister and the cabinet, voted for what was my motion, actually, to list the IRGC as a terrorist entity, yet in four years the government has failed to act on that. Now we hear discussion of additional sanctions being proposed by the government.

I will add as well that we haven't seen anyone get sanctioned under the Magnitsky act. Hopefully, those were the sanctions the Prime Minister was referring to, although we haven't heard specifics.

This is a very narrow, very specific amendment that speaks precisely to something that the government has previously voted for but hasn't acted on.

Maybe just in conclusion on this amendment, I believe a previous version of the foreign affairs committee actually reiterated that call at the end of that same Parliament. This is something that this committee has called for and this is something that Parliament has called for, so I hope we'll get support from all members for this important amendment.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

We will now go to Ms. McPherson.