Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[Sandra McCardell, Assistant Deputy Minister, Europe, Arctic, Middle East and Maghreb, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Mr. Chair, thank you for the opportunity to clarify how the sovereign loan program works.

I can assure the chair that the sovereign loan cannot be used for weapons or military purposes. I can also explain a little bit about the process for the loan, which will give some comfort as to how we are able to monitor and determine the purposes of the loan.

Just to make it clear, the sovereign loan program is developed and negotiated with the Ukrainians and must serve either peace and security or poverty reduction goals in line with our feminist international assistance policy. To do that, we have begun discussions with Ukraine to identify the priority programs that this loan will be appropriate for. Once that is completed and we have a focus for the loan, Ukraine needs to submit a formal request to us, and then we go through due diligence and ministerial approval.

It's just to say that this loan is destined for a specific focus. That focus must be in line with FIAP, and the results of that loan are monitored by our development officers.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

It's lovely to hear that this is going to align with FIAP and hopefully our soon-to-be-released feminist foreign policy.

Speaking of our feminist foreign policy, as you will all know, making sure that women are included at all of the tables, including in decision-making, de-escalation efforts and diplomatic efforts, is essential. It's critical if those are going to be successful.

What is the government doing to ensure that women peace-builders are supported and that Canada's commitment to the feminist foreign policy is reflected in its supports to Ukraine?

[Heidi Hulan]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, attention to the role of women is part of our short and longer-term support to Ukraine's military. It's central to our training effort there. That is why our ambassador for women, peace and security travelled with the chief of the defence staff when he visited Ukraine recently.

Both they and our ambassador on the ground in Ukraine emphasize the strategic, operational and tactical benefits to the military of considering gender at every stage of their efforts

If I could just answer the question more broadly, our wider efforts in Ukraine also have FIAP or feminist foreign policy objectives at their very heart. Human rights, women and gender considerations are integral to our training. They're integral to our technical assistance in the areas of security and judicial reform, including in encouraging appointments. We are supporting women through funding for community and grassroots organizations in Ukraine, although I don't have the name of that program with me. We are supporting Ukrainian women to lead at the very highest levels.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

You have one minute.

[Heidi Hulan]

I'll just make a final point if I may, Mr. Chair.

Whatever happens in Ukraine, it will end with diplomacy. Whatever agreement is reached will need to be monitored. We know from our experience working with communities around the world that those who monitor must include women and be attentive to gender issues. I want to assure you, Mr. Chair and the members of the committee, that Canada will be insisting on this in all of our engagements.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hulan. That's very reassuring.

Mr. Chair, am I—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

You have 35 seconds.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I will pass it on and I will get it on my next round.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

We're going on to round two now. It's five-minute rounds for all members, except for the Bloc and NDP members, who have rounds of two and a half minutes.

Mr. Genuis, you have the floor.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to focus my questions on the issue of sanctions.

We know that the Putin regime is not focused on the good of Russia as a nation. It's focused on its own well-being, and Vladimir Putin himself is very concerned about amassing wealth at the expense of the Russian people. We've heard from the Ukrainian community, as well as, in particular, Russian dissidents, about how much more of an effect we could have if we were targeting the personal wealth of the regime, if we were specifically sanctioning those individuals who hold Putin's wealth.

Alexei Navalny has published a list of key individuals who are holders and investors of Putin's personal wealth. He has shared the fact that he thinks sanctions up until now have not been sufficiently effective because we have not been sufficiently targeting and sanctioning those individuals who are decision-makers and holders of the regime's wealth.

I have this list of eight individuals who Navalny has suggested are key people in terms of holding Putin's wealth and are key targets for sanctioning, if we are going to really deter aggressive action by the Russian regime. I want to go through a few of these names.

Roman Abramovich is one of the names on that list. He is not sanctioned.

Could any of the witnesses share any light about Mr. Abramovich and why he has not been sanctioned by Canada and whether the government is considering sanctioning him?

[Heidi Hulan]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

I'm sorry. I'm getting feedback.

Can you hear me, Mr. Chair?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

We can hear you.

It's Mr. Genuis, though.

[Heidi Hulan]

Okay.

Thank you for that question.

I cannot speak to that individual case. However, what I want to say is that we are very actively engaged with our like-minded partners to design and implement a robust set of sanctions that would be quickly deployed should Russia choose a military path, and that those sanctions would represent very serious consequences and would incur very serious costs on Russia.

Mr. Chair—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Could I just jump in and ask specifically with respect to Navalny's list...? I'll name some of the other names.

Maybe you don't want to speak individually about them, but if you could speak to whether this list is part of the discussion and efforts to target Putin's personal wealth, other names that are on this list that are not sanctioned are: Denis Bortnikov, Igor Shuvalov, Vladimir Solovyov, and Alisher Usmanov.

Is this list from Alexei Navalny part of the discussions?

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, we are involved in discussions with our allies about what the shape of the sanctions list could look like. Those conversations are in confidence and have a deterrent value of their own, which we would wish to preserve at this stage, so I'm unable to give the member further information on the list he's referring to at this time.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Can you help me understand, though, what the deterrent value is if you're not stating that list? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that it would have more deterrent value if you said that we are prepared to sanction these specific individuals, freeze their assets, or even if, in light of the aggressive action already being taken—the aggressive posturing—you started the process. After all, these holders of Putin's wealth are accountable for many crimes already committed against Ukraine's sovereignty and against the Russian people, so why not name names and start down the road of sanctioning already to strengthen that deterrent effect?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

You have one minute.

[Heidi Hulan]

Thank you.

Naming names has the effect of signalling intent. Signalling intent can give an opportunity for money to be moved around, etc. There's greater deterrence in ambiguity at this time.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

Just in the time I have left, is the government discussing with allies excluding Russia from the SWIFT international payment system?

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, all options are on the table in the financial domain and in the sanctions domain. SWIFT has been the subject of discussion in the media, and I can tell you that SWIFT has also come up amongst allies.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, do I have time left?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

No.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

We will move now to Mr. Oliphant, who has a five-minute round.

Mr. Oliphant, you have the floor.