Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Whether it be privately through private channels or publicly, have we been specific as to what consequences will flow should Russia invade Ukraine? Have we specifically indicated to the Russian authorities what have been some of those measures?

[Heidi Hulan]

Like the United States, which has indicated that the financial measures would be sweeping and significant, we have said to the Russians, including publicly through our minister [Technical difficulty—Editor] are to institute a major package of sanctions and other economic measures should Russia choose a military path forward.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I'm just asking whether we've been specific or ambiguous. That's the only question I have.

[Heidi Hulan]

As was answered earlier, we see value at this stage in not being too specific about what our plans are.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you for that.

Now if I could move to another issue that obviously is of concern to members of this committee, I understand that 440 individuals are subject to sanctions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Mr. Ehsassi, I'm sorry to interrupt but your five minutes is up.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

We have to move on to our next questioner, unfortunately, but fortunately for them.

Thank you.

Next up is Mr. Bergeron.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We often hear the Minister of Foreign Affairs and senior officials in her department say that the Atlantic Alliance allies are completely united. During Monday's take‑note debate, the minister explained that this was why the Prime Minister didn't pick up the telephone to talk to President Putin. It seems that the Normandy Format, meaning France and England, has been retained for this type of discussion with the Russians.

I want to delve further into the question asked by our colleague, Hedy Fry.

According to Al‑Jazeera, Mr. Erdogan has offered to mediate. He would even suggest the possibility of peace negotiations taking place in Ankara.

Doesn't this show that this apparent unity, which we keep proclaiming as if to convince ourselves, is somewhat inconsistent? For example, we know that not all the allies in the Atlantic Alliance are enthusiastic about Ukraine's possible membership in NATO.

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, I really want to underscore the point that NATO's unity is very strong. That is not to say that NATO allies bring to their discussions exactly the same perspectives on every issue, nor do they bring to bear the same assets for resolving issues that arise. Ideas do get discussed at NATO. Differences of opinion between allies are aired in confidence, but when NATO moves, it moves together.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I have one final question, Mr. Chair.

How does the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development view the upcoming meeting between Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin during the Beijing Olympics?

[Heidi Hulan]

With your permission, I would like to turn to my colleague Sandra McCardell to answer that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Unfortunately, the round ended about 20 seconds ago, Mr. Bergeron. I think we're going to have some time to get into round four, though, because we're making pretty good time. You'll have an opportunity to ask another question.

Next up is Ms. McPherson for two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to follow up.

Ms. Hulan, you spoke about severe economic sanctions if Russia did escalate this conflict. Will those consider sanctions on Russian sovereign debt? I think my colleague Mr. Genuis had asked this as well, but can you provide any information on whether the SWIFT international payment system would also be impacted by those sanctions?

[Heidi Hulan]

The kinds of options that are available in terms of economic measures include sanctions against individuals, entities or states. They also include various export control measures, import-export bans, measures on dealing in foreign currencies of certain types, etc. They do include things like the SWIFT payment system. All of these items remain on the table and are being discussed, although I can tell you that the precise shape of the package that would be instituted is the subject of ongoing discussions precisely because allies need to move in concert.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

Could you tell me if there is a role for the peace and stabilization operations program in this current crisis and, if so, what would that be?

[Heidi Hulan]

The peace and stabilization operations program continues to operate at this time. Actually, the fruits of its work, in terms of the security sector reform that it has supported with its emphasis on police and defence sectors is particularly important at this time.

The program continues to work on projects related to countering disinformation, which is very relevant to the current crisis, supporting the Minsk process, which is also very relevant to the current crisis, and peaceful resolution to the crisis generally. As I mentioned before, a lot of the work of the program focuses on women, peace and security.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

Next up we have Mr. Genuis for five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll begin by following up on my previous comments. I did not mean in any way to imply that these sanctions against the individuals on Navalny's list would be only pre-emptive. They would be responses to threats to international peace and security and human rights violations that have already occurred. It's precisely why Russian dissidents are calling for these sanctions. If we were applying sanctions aggressively against Putin's allies and those holding his wealth, that would deter future actions by showing that we were serious about past actions.

I also question this discussion about the number of people who are sanctioned. We sanctioned all of these people. The most important thing with sanctions is that we're targeting the regime's wealth, that we're targeting those powerful actors, and creating real consequences for decision-makers. You can sanction many people without necessarily sanctioning the right people.

I would ask our witnesses, whoever the most appropriate person to respond is, why we have not already sanctioned some of these individuals on Navalny's list, the individuals who are holding Vladimir Putin's personal wealth and investing it abroad.

[Heidi Hulan]

I can tell you that, as a matter of sanctions, I'm not in a position to speak to the specific list you have before you. What I can tell you is that we have one of the most robust sanctions regimes in the world. When it comes to the post-Crimea situation, we have 440 individuals and entities in response to the illegal annexation of Crimea and associated efforts to undermine Ukraine.

We're actively engaged with partners going forward, and the sanctions package we are prepared to introduce would be robust.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you. That's similar to the answers we've heard before.

I wonder if you would be able to provide follow-up information to the committee in writing about the specific individuals who Alexei Navalny has recommended. It may be there is certain information you would not wish to be shared publicly, but perhaps you would be willing to provide some more detailed information about the discussions around sanctions on an in camera basis in writing. Is that something you'd be prepared to do?

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, with your permission, I'd like to consult within our ministry to see what is appropriate to be shared with the members of the committee, either in writing or in camera.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you very much. If you could follow up with the committee either way and let us know the results of those discussions, it would be greatly appreciated.

I want to follow up on a very good question from Mr. Bergeron that we didn't have time to hear the answer to with respect to the relationship between the regimes in Russia and China.

What is China's position with respect to a possible further invasion of Ukraine? Is there any dialogue going on involving China between the Putin regime and the Chinese regime, between NATO allies and China? Is there any dialogue happening there that you're aware of and what is their position?

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to turn to my colleague Sandra McCardell for this question, please.

[Sandra McCardell]

Certainly, and we've been aware for quite some time that there is a strong and growing relationship between China and Russia. There is a complicity of authoritarian regimes very much in counterpoint to our own democracies. We're conscious of the relationship between China and Russia, and it's one of the many reasons that we are as engaged as we are in Ukraine.

There is, of course, Ukraine. There is, of course, the regional implications of this which are tremendously grave, but there is also a broader strategic question globally that we need to be attentive to. In short, we are watching very closely what is happening between Russia and China, and we are conscious that any support China's giving to Russia will be very much counter to the positions of our own unified group of democracies.